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 PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:23 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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Here's a question worth pondering:

Is the Force immanent or transcendent? Or is it both?


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 PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:28 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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In terms of existence, I think it could be classed as transcendent, as it shows clear signs of existing outside of personal experience. However, I don't think that's exactly what you meant - that being its ... capabilities being limited to what can only be experienced by sapient beings. A subtle, but necessary difference, in my opinion (for example, I exist outside of your, and others, experience, so I could be called transcendent, technically). In a way, I hope it is transcendent, because that would fit with my Force philosophy (I have to get kudos for using that in a sentence, at least?). But, I do vaguely recall persons who've tapped into the Force and have had their senses and brain activity enhanced beyond what sounds possible - being able to sense everything in the galaxy, I think was mentioned - so I think that might suggest that it leans towards immanency, rather than having the entirety of the Force outside of all possible experience. In that regard, I'd say it's immanent. Because if it's outside of the existence of pretty much everything in the galaxy, then it would be, technically speaking, non-existent.

Sorry. It's the morning. I'm probably not making much sense.
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 PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:12 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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What is your Force philosophy?

I think based upon the OT and the OT alone, the Force can be safely said to be immanent. It surrounds us and binds us. It's an energy field created by all living things. This is what Matt Stover was saying in the interview after he wrote Traitor that I posted a part of earlier.

Episode I might bring that into question. I've heard the word "transcendental" used to describe an entity that is both immanent and transcendent, and I suppose another means to term it would be panentheistic. One thought that I've had for a while, without knowing the vocabulary, was that the Living Force was immanent and the Unifying or Cosmic Force was transcendent.

I'm not quite ready to contemplate the meaning of the will of the Force personally, but my prior understanding (with my lack of understanding) was that the will of the Force belonged to the transcendent aspect of the Force, the Unifying Force. Stover suggests that the will of the Force is part of the immanent Force and is perhaps another way of saying some form of destiny or fate.

I suppose Jacen's moment of apotheosis also warrants deliberation with this understanding... I need to re-read that to see if the way that the Force is described is in a transcendent manner or an immanent one.

I've always thought that the Yuuzhan Vong, while existing outside the immanent Force, were still connected to the transcendent Force, under my prior understanding.

I suppose in the context of Mortis, as well, that I thought the Father represented the transcendent Force while the two children represented manifestations of the immanent Force.

But... "See, the thing is, everything everyone tells you is a lie. The truth is always bigger than the words we use to describe it."


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 PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:48 am Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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Crash Override wrote:
What is your Force philosophy?



I've always thought that the Yuuzhan Vong, while existing outside the immanent Force, were still connected to the transcendent Force, under my prior understanding.


The Vong like the Ysalmiri and Ulic- had their connection to the living Force stripped- but they always existed in the Unifying Force. Like I-5- his Force-sensitivity is the Unifying Force at work- after all when Yoda tells Luke the Force is in the rocks and his ship- he can not be talking about the living Force in that instance.
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 PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:28 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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Crash Override wrote:
What is your Force philosophy?

I think based upon the OT and the OT alone, the Force can be safely said to be immanent. It surrounds us and binds us. It's an energy field created by all living things. This is what Matt Stover was saying in the interview after he wrote Traitor that I posted a part of earlier.

Episode I might bring that into question. I've heard the word "transcendental" used to describe an entity that is both immanent and transcendent, and I suppose another means to term it would be panentheistic. One thought that I've had for a while, without knowing the vocabulary, was that the Living Force was immanent and the Unifying or Cosmic Force was transcendent.

I'm not quite ready to contemplate the meaning of the will of the Force personally, but my prior understanding (with my lack of understanding) was that the will of the Force belonged to the transcendent aspect of the Force, the Unifying Force. Stover suggests that the will of the Force is part of the immanent Force and is perhaps another way of saying some form of destiny or fate.

I suppose Jacen's moment of apotheosis also warrants deliberation with this understanding... I need to re-read that to see if the way that the Force is described is in a transcendent manner or an immanent one.

I've always thought that the Yuuzhan Vong, while existing outside the immanent Force, were still connected to the transcendent Force, under my prior understanding.

I suppose in the context of Mortis, as well, that I thought the Father represented the transcendent Force while the two children represented manifestations of the immanent Force.

But... "See, the thing is, everything everyone tells you is a lie. The truth is always bigger than the words we use to describe it."


To be honest, it's been a while since I've even thought about it, and I can't recall where I stand on the Unifying vs Living Force. Sorry about that. However, I really liked what you said about Living being immanent and Unifying being transcendent. That would be very interesting to see explained in depth, and is worth closer examination.

When I said earlier that I hope the Force is transcendental, I'm starting to regret it. Now that I think on it - my feeling that the Force should be grander than what any being could experience - seems rather silly, now. Almost narcissistic and egotistical; very being-centric. Not to mention somewhat based on false assumptions. My thinking went that, in an infinite universe, energy would be infinite (the Force being described as an energy field). Yet knowledge - as I was taught - is most definitely finite. Yet would that be so, in an infinite universe? Now I'm not so sure. By that reasoning, I felt that knowledge of the Force would be impossible for anyone to accomplish.
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 PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:12 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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illogicalRogue2 wrote:
Crash Override wrote:
What is your Force philosophy?



I've always thought that the Yuuzhan Vong, while existing outside the immanent Force, were still connected to the transcendent Force, under my prior understanding.


The Vong like the Ysalmiri and Ulic- had their connection to the living Force stripped- but they always existed in the Unifying Force. Like I-5- his Force-sensitivity is the Unifying Force at work- after all when Yoda tells Luke the Force is in the rocks and his ship- he can not be talking about the living Force in that instance.


I'm not sure if I agree with this interpretation. Rewinding back to 1980, there was no distinction between two aspects of the Force, and the presentation of the EU associated with the introduction of the Unifying Force by Episode I was that this was something of which Luke was previously unaware. Thus, it would follow that when Yoda spoke of the Force being between the rock and the ship, he was speaking of the Living Force, since that was all of which Luke was taught. The Living Force is the immanent Force, the Force that "surrounds us, and binds us." The Unifying Force, especially in the prequel context, is used for prescience, albeit poorly, by the Jedi. Going back to the Lucas definition:

“The overriding philosophy in Episode I — and in all the Star Wars movies, for that matter — is the balance between good and evil. The Force itself breaks into two sides: the living Force and a greater, cosmic Force. The living Force makes you sensitive to other living things, makes you intuitive, and allows you to read other people’s minds, et cetera. But the greater Force has to do with destiny. In working with the Force, you can find your destiny and you can choose to either follow it, or not.” - George Lucas, The Making of Episode I

The Unifying/Cosmic Force seems to be transcendent in the way that it is described here.

Furthermore, *if* Luke used the Unifying Force to lift rocks or the ship, then he should have no problem using it to sense the Yuuzhan Vong. In fact, Traitor elucidates on this point when Jacen contemplates the question "If the Force is life, how can there be life without the Force?"

"If the Force was only about life, how could it be used to pick up a rock, or a lightsaber, or an X-wing starfighter? To move something with the Force, you have to feel it. A piece of rock has more presence in the Force than a living Yuuzhan Vong."

To be honest, I'm still not entirely sold on the idea of the two aspects of the Force, the Living and Unifying/Cosmic, representing an immanent and transcendent aspect, respectively. I suppose I really need to re-read The Unifying Force.

I've been thinking of writing a commentary or analysis on Traitor/Destiny's Way. I think Traitor itself is much more easily understood by working knowledge of the Tao Te Ching and Spinoza's Ethics (which is absolutely inaccessible to the lay person). Look at the first two lines of the Tao Te Ching, for instance:

The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named is not the eternal name

Sounds familiar, right?

"See, the thing is, everything everyone tells you is a lie. The truth is always bigger than the words we use to describe it."

I think the best way to analyze Vergere in Traitor and Destiny's Way is to understand that her primary way of teaching Jacen is through the Socratic method. Wikipedia says it better than I can: "The Socratic method is a negative method of hypothesis elimination, in that better hypotheses are found by steadily identifying and eliminating those that lead to contradictions." Thus, she isn't actually teaching Jacen anything, but is instead whittling away at his erroneous beliefs until he comes to non-contradictory ones. Thus, the philosophy to take away from Traitor is that which Jacen arrives to at the conclusion of the novel, rather than latching onto certain things that Vergere says through the course of the novel. Certainly she makes declarative statements on occasion, but these are intended like Zen kōan, in order to further provoke doubt in Jacen's held beliefs to the same end as the Socratic method.


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 PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:10 pm Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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Crash I would love to chat with you about this ober a skype call someday. I think I make you go off in different directions when I try explaining myself with text.
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-To become a Jedi, it is not the Force one must learn to control but oneself.
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 PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:43 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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Yeah, I've been actually discussing Vergere quite a bit elsewhere, and general Force philosophy, both from Vergere and the NJO in general, as well as the films and stuff like Mortis. I'd be down with that.


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 PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:52 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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Let's get this rolling again!

Some mantras:

There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
There is no fear; there is power.
I am the heart of the Force.
I am the revealing fire of light.
I am the mystery of darkness
In balance with chaos and harmony,
Immortal in the Force.

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet the Force.

There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.

Jedi are the guardians of peace in the galaxy.
Jedi use their powers to defend and to protect.
Jedi respect all life, in any form.
Jedi serve others rather than ruling over them, for the good of the galaxy.
Jedi seek to improve themselves through knowledge and training.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

There seems almost as though there is an evolution in meaning from the Je'daii mantra to Odan-Urr's version of the Jedi mantra to the current one off which the Sith based their code as the Jedi became more restrictive as a safeguard against dark side corruption over time.


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 PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:44 pm Reply with quote  
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  Arawn_Fenn
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illogicalRogue2 wrote:
after all when Yoda tells Luke the Force is in the rocks and his ship- he can not be talking about the living Force in that instance.


He says it's between the land and the ship. The point is that the "field lines", so to speak, of the energy field are all over the place.
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