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 PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:18 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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DarthMRN wrote:
Not sure I understand what coherence has to do with it. You mean the EU taking liberties with the Lucasverse source material?

No, I meant competing Force philosophies and the idea of there being no right answer. Things like the Chosen One, bringing balance to the Force, the dark and light sides, destroying the Sith, and various other ideas in the films (not to mention the EU) being a confused, incompatible mess.

And, yes, there's also the continuity conflicts between the G-canon, the EU, and now whatever Disney is doing.

Star Wars has become a mental gym session in ways it shouldn't.
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 PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:34 am Reply with quote  
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  Taral-DLOS
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I have no problem with there being multiple interpretations. Who is to say that one group cannot believe that the role of the Chosen One is to destroy the Sith, while another group can believe that the Chosen One must take the place of The Father on Mortis?

Because the beings who believe these things are supernatural, it is plausible that each group has the power to make their version "correct".
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 PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:55 am Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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The way I see it, Star Wars is meant to be a bunch of fun stories. It's not meant to be something as well structured and cohesive as say a religion or historical account. While the creators of Star Wars may strive for and try to achieve cohesion and structure, it's a never ending battle.
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 PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:40 pm Reply with quote  
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  DarthMRN
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Taral-DLOS wrote:
I have no problem with there being multiple interpretations. Who is to say that one group cannot believe that the role of the Chosen One is to destroy the Sith, while another group can believe that the Chosen One must take the place of The Father on Mortis?

I'd say the problem is more meta-level. It has to do with OOU author mouthpieces.

If we as an audience can't assume Yoda's musings on the Force to be objective truths, as opposed to some self-serving Jedi dogma, we are left knowing virtually nothing about it.

Similarly, if we can't assume a godlike being like Father to know what he is talking about wrt the Force, where do we turn?

If we can't even put stock in the messianic prophesy of the Chosen One, as it pans out in practice, then we can't even trust the Force of destiny to be reliable.


It is not a matter of secular figures with competing ideologies like in real-world religion. It is a matter of separate sources that are all highly reliable to the audience, and their different messages not adding up very well, requiring mental gymnastics to even approach a unified answer.


Oh, and with the incoming Moriband and "planet that is the source of the Force" -stuff, things are poised to get even more crazy! *maniacal laugh*
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 PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:29 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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DarthMRN wrote:
It is not a matter of secular figures with competing ideologies like in real-world religion. It is a matter of separate sources that are all highly reliable to the audience, and their different messages not adding up very well, requiring mental gymnastics to even approach a unified answer.

Yes, exactly. It might not bother other people, but it really gets under my skin when things aren't coherent or consistent. As long as it's little things or honest mistakes, I can usually shrug it off, but with Star Wars, the problem goes right down to it's core - the nature of the Force, what the Chosen One is supposed to do etc. I can't shrug that off.
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 PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:12 am Reply with quote  
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  Dog-Poop_Walker
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That's because the narrative of scifi needs to be constrained in order to suspend disbelief and sustain conflict.

Having faith in how a magical Force functions actually makes much more logical sense than relativity in faster than light speed travel or thermodynamics and gravity of a solar system with two suns.
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 PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:36 am Reply with quote  
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  Taral-DLOS
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Dog-Poop_Walker wrote:
That's because the narrative of scifi needs to be constrained in order to suspend disbelief and sustain conflict.

Having faith in how a magical Force functions actually makes much more logical sense than relativity in faster than light speed travel or thermodynamics and gravity of a solar system with two suns.


Not really, given that many many many star systems have multiple suns. Our closest neighbour, Alpha Centauri, has three (A, B, and Proxima). This does not cause a crisis of faith.

And as for relativity vs. FTL, the problem with Star Wars is that they've never even bothered to try to explain how their hyperdrives work. Star Trek had reasonable explanations where you could say "Ok, well, that is impossible, but I see how in the universe's fiction it would work." All that your FTL example is lacking is the will for the creators to say anything at all about it.

The mere existence of The Force, as well as its general inconsistency (it can do all of these things, except when the plot demands otherwise) pushes Star Wars away from good sci-fi. It's a great series, and many of the EU stories are really good sci-fi. But the movies are much closer to Fantasy, which needs fewer constraints.
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-Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear


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 PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:30 am Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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It might depend on what you're into as well. I'm not into science, so when I'm told about things like hyperspace, I don't question it. As long as it isn't completely absurd *coughDarthMaulRobotLegscough*, I just go with it. However, I am into philosophy and mythology, so the inconsistencies really bother me.
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 PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:04 am Reply with quote  
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  Taral-DLOS
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Reepicheep wrote:
It might depend on what you're into as well. I'm not into science, so when I'm told about things like hyperspace, I don't question it. As long as it isn't completely absurd *coughDarthMaulRobotLegscough*, I just go with it. However, I am into philosophy and mythology, so the inconsistencies really bother me.


Why are Darth Maul robot legs absurd? The spider-body was certainly odd (he was insane though, so we can cut him some slack in that area), but cybernetic legs seem fair. Especially when you consider that it was the Force that kept him alive for a chunk of it.

But I take your point.
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-Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear


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 PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:06 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Both Darth Sidious and Darth Maul fell down reactor shafts. I never doubted Sidious was killed and he was still in one piece. Maul was already bisected at the waist (and even with the Force, I can't see how anyone could survive that) and then thrown down a reactor shaft. Absurdity.
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 PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:39 am Reply with quote  
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  Dog-Poop_Walker
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Taral-DLOS wrote:
Not really, given that many many many star systems have multiple suns. Our closest neighbour, Alpha Centauri, has three (A, B, and Proxima). This does not cause a crisis of faith.


haha. I read about multi star systems after I posted that and wondered whether anyone would call me out on it... but I stand by that statement since it was a question of the plausibility of Tatooine's planetary atmosphere. Plus we didn't know about that yet when Star Wars first came out, so it was a fantasy idea at the time.

What I'm trying to say is that "A wizard did it!" doesn't bother me too much...unless it's the TV show Lost.
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 PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:14 am Reply with quote  
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  Taral-DLOS
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Reepicheep wrote:
Both Darth Sidious and Darth Maul fell down reactor shafts. I never doubted Sidious was killed and he was still in one piece. Maul was already bisected at the waist (and even with the Force, I can't see how anyone could survive that) and then thrown down a reactor shaft. Absurdity.


I dunno; if we give liberties with magic to the show and movies and books and comics and etc. in other ways, I don't see why not here. Note that your Sidious example doesn't quite work because a) it wasn't just a pit; it was a pit with a power reactor at the bottom that subsequently exploded (so having him die there while Maul's mostly-empty pit doesn't kill him isn't a huge deal), and b) it didn't kill him; his spirit lived on to be cloned. If the Dark Side can keep Palpatine's spirit alive and ready to be cloned, then surely an equally vengeful spirit can have his wrecked body cling to life.

I agree with Walker; "A wizard did it!" is a fair excuse for almost anything, including the forced survival of a strong magic user.
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-Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear


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 PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:15 pm Reply with quote  
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  DarthMRN
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Ahsoka has a pretty insane fall in TCW, easily giving precedence to Maul surviving his.

Of course, the same logic would save Mace Windu, and should indeed have prompted a search for Maul's body after TPM. In both cases these are treated like regular humans getting tossed down a pit, indicating their death. So in other words, plot convenience rules?
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 PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:59 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Taral-DLOS wrote:
I dunno; if we give liberties with magic to the show and movies and books and comics and etc. in other ways, I don't see why not here. Note that your Sidious example doesn't quite work because a) it wasn't just a pit; it was a pit with a power reactor at the bottom that subsequently exploded (so having him die there while Maul's mostly-empty pit doesn't kill him isn't a huge deal)

What did Maul fall into? I'm pretty sure it was a reactor shaft. Even if it wasn't... that fall would kill you... and before that being cut in half at the waist would.

Taral-DLOS wrote:
and b) it didn't kill him; his spirit lived on to be cloned. If the Dark Side can keep Palpatine's spirit alive and ready to be cloned, then surely an equally vengeful spirit can have his wrecked body cling to life.

Yeah, but I didn't like that storyline either. Razz

As a rule I strongly dislike characters coming back from the dead, because it cheapens consequences and takes away from the reality of the story. There are exceptions to this rule, but very few.
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To find all you seek,
There is the utter east.


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 PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:07 am Reply with quote  
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  Dog-Poop_Walker
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Well to be fair those are all EU contrivances and the only on screen character to survive a 500 story fall is Luke.
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They have taken the hearts and minds of our leaders. They have recruited the rich and the powerful, and they have blinded us to the truth! Our human spirit is corrupted. Why do we worship greed? Because, outside the limit of our sight, feeding off us, perched on top of us from birth to death are OUR OWNERS. They have us! They control us! They are our masters! Wake up! They’re all about you, all around you!


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