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 PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:27 am Reply with quote  
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  kamenkewl
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Caedus_16 wrote:
Probably just kind of a shock at first.

yeah. i went through something similar last year. i know i way overreacted, and badly, too. Sad
but, i mean, here's how i see it: my best friend, the girl i loved more then anyone else, pretty much comes out and says she'd rather go out with another girl. what she specifically said was "there aren't any guys around here worth going out with, so me and alex are going out now"
but, yeah, i was kind of an sheb about it. had it been anyone other then her....


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Kal pulls out his soapbox, <sfx> clears his throat ...
 PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:40 am Reply with quote  
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  Kal_Skirata
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What is sad about society these days is the lack of tolerance. Look what's happening here in California, we have a ballot measure, Prop 8, that plainly discriminates against people. I had two guys come to my door one day and ask my opinion of the bill. My response, if they are happy with one another and want to go through all the same "crap" a married couple does - let them. Let them go through the same joy and stress that my wife and I go through on a given day. Trust me, these days it's tuff around the Skirata household. If they go through all this and are happy with their partner - why should anyone stand in their way.

Here's a suggestion to make the other person think - look them in the eye and ask "What would you do if your son or daughter came up to you and said 'Mom - Dad, I'm gay.'" Ask them if they would turn their back on their child just because they disagree. Nothing, nothing will change the fact the person standing in front of them is their child. That should make anyone think Smile

This is Kal Skirata getting off his soapbox - And I Thank You

Oh, one more thing, Caedus_16 - (climbing back on my soapbox) from experience and if I told you all the whole story your hair will stand on edge; the best thing you can do for your friend who's getting married is to be there. Certain members of my family, and I will not get into that here, did not go to mine 17 years ago next weekend. I only had one brother show up and that was because his wife, who was very pregnant and delivered about four days later, forced him to go.

Be there for your friend, that way there are no regrets on either side.

Now I'm off my soapbox - guess I should make it into a derby car now huh? LOL - Errr yeah, okay - yes that was a really bad joke - sorry Sad
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Re: Kal pulls out his soapbox, <sfx> clears his throat
 PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:47 am Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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Kal_Skirata wrote:
What is sad about society these days is the lack of tolerance. Look what's happening here in California, we have a ballot measure, Prop 8


Lack of tolerance? Come one, isnt that being a bit hypocritical? For example, why are you calling the pro prop 8 group intolerant? Shouldnt they be able to hold their own beliefs? They have certain religious, moral, and rational reasons for believing what they do. Being tolerant does not mean having to except everyones beliefs. For example if i think gay marriage is perverted and unnatural then of course i dont want society accepting it.

And a lot of people use the argument "I dont do it but if others want to do it thats not my business." Thats also very hypocritical. I mean, i dont do drugs, but does that mean i dont care if others do? No i would want all illegal drug cases to be looked at and people punished for it.

This isnt a buffet, you cant pick and choose what tolerance is and when you want it. This is where people start abusing the word, using it to shut other view points up.

Just something to think about


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 PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 6:36 am Reply with quote  
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  FatalFist
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Wow...mostly I've just dealt with kiddy stuff...this frnd doesnt talk to this other frnd and so doesnt want you miles near him. This kinda behavior reaaaaally ticks me off.
like I said Ive only ever had the kiddy probs.hehe...lucky me I guess.
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Wat would I do if some dude/dudette told me he/she was gay....frankly Id probably just raise my eyebrows...then probably claim that he/she is just pulling my leg....but then I'll just probably shut up when I find out that he/she is serious, and then I'd be back to normal.....They can do wat they want to do, as long as its nt in public, cuz, I get peeved of even when some friend start making out with his gf...(thats naturally embarassing)
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This might sound reaaaaly hypocritical/watever....but two men kissing is like whoa...two girls...and I'll probably be ok with it.......Thats probably becuz Im a boy
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A quick response.....
 PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:17 am Reply with quote  
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  Kal_Skirata
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Autoban - you're the second person in the past two weeks that mentioned - "can't pick and chose." Isn't that called being an "individual?" You use your own mind to make your decisions and not follow a pack?

I'm not asking or making anyone change a belief. I'm just asking for people to think. That's all. Put yourself in someone else's shoes when it comes to this or any topic. I personally don't want to know what happens in the bedroom of a gay or any other couple.

This country was built on freedom of speech and choice. I just feel it's not right to have a Constitutional Amendment that takes away an Inalienable right that is given to all Americans. To me this bill is trying to take away that right and that is wrong and discriminatory.

I only ask that people remember this. You can have your belief, I'm not trying to change that since it's your right. That's what makes this country great but, if you start to make Amendments that take away rights of American citizens - where is that taking this country? You and I can have this conversation and support our sides because that is what this country is built upon. We can agree to disagree, correct, and still walk away friends. Smile
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Re: A quick response.....
 PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:12 am Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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Kal_Skirata wrote:
Autoban - you're the second person in the past two weeks that mentioned - "can't pick and chose."


I was very clear what i meant by that. I specifically pointed out that people take the word tolerance and bend it to their own viewpoints. For example, you called those who support prop 8 intolerant. If you really want others to be able to pick and choose, why would you say that about a group of people? Can they not hold a certain belief?

Quote:
I just feel it's not right to have a Constitutional Amendment that takes away an Inalienable right


First off, prop 22 was a constitutional amendment as well, so if your going to go down that path i could just say you are making constitutional amendments imposing your belief in every aspect of my life. And gay marriage being an inalienable right is really hard to buy. Inalienable right, means "natural right." So keep in mind while you may believe it, others dont see homosexuality as natural. In fact many believe it is very unnatural.

Quote:
I'm not asking or making anyone change a belief.


Actually you are. If prop 8 doesnt pass, then schools in California will be compelled to teach children and that children must accept that same-sex marriage is the same as traditional marriage. Churches will be forced to perform same-sex marriages even if that is contrary to the church's beliefs. Churches would not be able to use their doctrinal beliefs to defend their positions.

So you see, really you are forcing a belief on a huge group of people. To make churches for example perform gay marriages against their core beliefs? Thats really wrong.

And its not like gays are so persecuted. They have civil unions, and have rights too. Its the fact that marriage is being redifined that people have a problem with. And they have perfectly good reason to believe that. Who are you to tell people thier religious beliefs and convictions are not allowed? And they shouldnt have to deal with people calling them "intolerant." Thats really not fair at all.


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My Response....
 PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:54 am Reply with quote  
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  Kal_Skirata
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Quote:
Who are you to tell people thier religious beliefs and convictions are not allowed?


Okay, if I am telling you that, then I am going against what our forefathers came here to escape. They came here for freedom of persecution from religon. To have their own convictions and freedom of speech. And, if you believe that I am trying to do that to you, then in return - are you not trying to do that to me? And, then explain to me, are you not doing the same thing by making a Constitutional Amendment about your beliefs?

If these are my conviction and they go against yours, why are you trying to make me see differently? I get back to this, this country was built on an indivitual having the right to their own beliefs, practice their own religion with freedom from persecution. It was built so everyone can find a common ground and work from there, not push one idea over another.

That's a problem I have with a party in power also in control of Congress. There will not be any common ground to find, where will they "reach across the isle" when it has to be done. The power will be lopsided and the people in power get thier way.

BTW, this is fun. A good debate is all good Smile Keeps the lines of communication open - as it should be!!!!!! Still friends Smile I hope Smile
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Re: My Response....
 PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:03 pm Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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Quote:
then explain to me, are you not doing the same thing by making a Constitutional Amendment about your beliefs?


It really isnt the same. Gay's have civil unions and rights as well. They can do whatever it is they do and nobody bothers them. However, if prop 8 does not get passed, then schools will teach kids about equality of gay marriage, and there will be no option to opt out. https://www.icontribute.us/protectmarriage/initiative/truth-web

Secondly, i will bring up the Church argument again, because i believe it is an important one. Churches would have to perform gay marriages if asked. How is that not religious persecution? It goes completely against what the Church believes, and you are forcing them to accept that.

And one other thing. Its really disturbing that the debate on gay's is getting pushed out the door. For example, at schools you just get called a bigot and intolerant if you disagree with gay's. There is never any intelligent debates, you just get smeared as a "homophobe." Seriously, this is just so amazing to me.

To really explain more why i am against gay marriage, i would have explain why i fundamentally disagree with homosexuality. But i dont know if this is the thread for that. To make it short though, i believe homosexuality is just sexual perversion. Its not a natural way of life, and it makes no sense at all, not even biologically. Therefore its not fair to call gay marriage an inalienable right. Thats why i believe while i have no say over what people do at home, they better keep it out of schools, religious institutions, and any other public place. And thats why i believe prop 8 is actually protecting free speech and peoples rights.

Quote:
I get back to this, this country was built on an indivitual having the right to their own beliefs, practice their own religion with freedom from persecution.


And again, no one is persecuting gays. Prop 8 does not stop them from doing what they do and believing what they believe. It does not even get rid of civil unions or any of that. Gay's will do what they do, fine. But the moment they try to impose their views on a large scale, and force others to go along with it without even having a fair debate, then no. I will do everything i can to fight it.

Quote:
That's a problem I have with a party in power also in control of Congress. There will not be any common ground to find, where will they "reach across the isle" when it has to be done. The power will be lopsided and the people in power get thier way.


I completely agree. And this goes for democrats AND republicans. Its not fair to anybody when one party rules. They will make decisions based on what they want, and they wont take the other party into consideration. This is why i am really upset with the fact that democrats might have a huge majority, in the house, congress, and white house. Really dangerous.

Quote:
BTW, this is fun. A good debate is all good Smile Keeps the lines of communication open - as it should be!!!!!! Still friends Smile I hope Smile


Yup it is fun. No worries, still friends. I dont let opposing views get in the way of things. For example, i even have some gay friends. Of course i make my viewpoints known to them Very Happy


Last edited by Autobon on Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:19 pm; edited 2 times in total


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A really quick reply .....
 PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:11 pm Reply with quote  
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  Kal_Skirata
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Autoban, this has been a blast and I do to plan continue. I'll have to pick this debate up a little later, pumpkin carving to do with the kids - errr I mean I need to clean Varpine rifle, yeah - that's it Smile

You are worthy adversary my friend. You will make a great Mando warrior!!! Smile

Until I come back - this is your Uncle Kal signing off - for now.
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 PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:25 pm Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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Hey no problem, have fun carving pumpkins. Maybe make a mando helmet pumpkin Very Happy


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Mando Helmet......
 PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 7:56 pm Reply with quote  
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  Kal_Skirata
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Autobon, that was the pattern my son picked for his pumpkin. LOL I guess we agree on something - well we both love Star Wars as well. Smile

Have a good one!!! Smile Very Happy
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 PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:02 pm Reply with quote  
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  FatalFist
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Awww...I wanted a verdict on this thing...oh well....hehe
And we reaaaly should create the Debates thread=its fun I guess, just listening/reading.
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Re: Mando Helmet......
 PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:43 pm Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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Kal_Skirata wrote:
Autobon, that was the pattern my son picked for his pumpkin.


Good taste!

FatalFist wrote:
Awww...I wanted a verdict on this thing...oh well


Please give your view, i am interested in what you think. Lets add a third person in on this!


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 PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:56 pm Reply with quote  
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  Mara Jade Skywalker
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I have an opinion on it, but it's a very touchy one. Okay...here's the thing. What I believe you can and can't tell someone to do all depends on whether it's right or wrong. If it's a wrong thing, then that shouldn't qualify as 'freedom of action'. They shouldn't be allowed to get away with it, period. If it's right/okay, then nobody should be able to force a decision on that person one way or another.

But that opens up a whole other debate. What is right and what is wrong? What in the world do we base it on? Once upon a time it was based on the Bible. God was our judge and higher authority, and in times of doubt, we looked to His rules. However...God is no longer an authority we wish to place our trust in. Soooo...where do the definitions of right and wrong come from these days?

That's why it's hard for people to understand my beliefs. I believe there is a God, the one and only, and that He has set down the rules we are to abide by. He defines right and wrong. If people are doing something He defines as wrong, then they should be made to stop. If people are doing something that simply goes against a personal conviction of mine, then they are free to do as they please.

So in this particular case, I would have to say that gay/lesbian/homosexuals should not be allowed to do what they're doing. Or at least not publicly. What they do in their own homes is punishable by God, not me. I'm not going to send a SWAT team out knocking down doors making sure everybody's being good. But the Bible clearly defines homosexuality as wrong, and therefore I don't believe it to be an action that's simply a 'matter of opinion'. It's wrong and should be treated as such.

Unfortunately, my opinion only makes sense to those who believe in God and the Bible. I have no more of a complicated explanation than that. It goes back to God and His word, and that's all there is to it. Sooo...I'm not trying to shove my beliefs down anyone's throats, certainly not, but that's just what I believe, plain and simple.
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 PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 12:24 am Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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Mara Jade Skywalker wrote:
What is right and what is wrong? What in the world do we base it on? Once upon a time it was based on the Bible....However...God is no longer an authority we wish to place our trust in


Mara Jade, you bring up an excellent point. The way I look at it is this. If one is to believe everything in the world is just by chance, and there is no God, in other words an athiest, then really there is nothing to base anything on.

Certainly there cant be morals, or any other laws. Because if nature is random and evolutionary then its the survival of the fittest. Its every man and women for themselves.

And so taking into account that way of thinking, then yes of course, people should be allowed to do whatever it is the please. So I, like you, base my fundamental ideology on christian principles, and then use scientific fact and logic and the morals society has excepted from religion against them. And that way nobody can ever use the excuse that they dont believe the bible or whatever. Because technically i have never even brought it up.


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