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 PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:31 pm Reply with quote  
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  Taral-DLOS
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Skywalker2B wrote:
They had my quote in that article as well. Not sure how I feel about that at this moment.

So, here is the take away from the big announcement:

Creative people can not work within any restraints. Rolling Eyes

It doesn't matter if the rest of the world has to operate within established parameters, creative people just can't. So we must remove all contraints so that they are free to be as creative as possible. Again Rolling Eyes


Ok, but there's such a thing as a reasonable amount of constraints vs. way too many constraints. You can't write a good 0 ABY story anymore without ignoring something, otherwise you end up making the characters look foolish in an effort to conform (see: the blatant mischaracterization of Luke Skywalker in Choices of One, which I feel was partially forced, given all that material that said he wasn't very good at his job yet). So you don't necessarily wipe the slate clean, but you draw from what works with your story, and leave out what makes your otherwise-excellent story bad.

And they are working within constraints. For example, they can't kill Luke Skywalker in a pre-ROTJ novel. That's a restriction. They're still bound by the rules set out in the films, TCW, and now Rebels.
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 PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:46 pm Reply with quote  
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  DarthMRN
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Agreed. There is no conceivable area of human endevour where fewer tools and opportunities doesn't also decrease the odds of success, all else being equal. Only if you are sure that the constraints will help aim the effort towards where it needs to be, as is the case when being restrained by the Lucasverse while making a movie with the SW logo, are those constraints a benefit.

And there is no way of predicting whether adhering to all of the constraints of the LU would provide an added benefit or not. Especially when they are just as free to use its awesomeness and worldbuilding as if it were canon. The only thing certain is that it would restrict the tools and opportunities available to people doing their darndest to live up to an impossible legacy.

The math should be self-evident.
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 PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:54 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth_Henning
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Taral-DLOS wrote:
In my view, I don't think it was possible to continue building stories and have the EU be maintained perfectly. Eventually, the only way that can become feasible is if you stop making PT and OT-era stories, and those are among the most marketable books they can write (you can make all the Legacy-era books you want, but those appeal mostly to fans like us; a book set in the months after ANH or during the Clone Wars or before TPM has a broader audience). So, in my view, the death of full EU continuity was inevitable, and so it's better to do a clean cut and name something Legends then to let it slowly die via oversaturation of stories (how many books, comics, kids stories, etc. take place within 1 year of the Battle of Yavin? Imagine how many there would be in 20 years).

And yay, new stories, and even new stories on film! WOO!!!!!!!!


That is true. They can't make many new PT/OT era novels after a point. But...the old ones are still on the shelves. If people want to read a book set "days after ANH"....why does there have to be a new one every two years? When there's one already on the shelf?

An issue I've always had.

Taral-DLOS wrote:
1- People who haven't read the NJO may find a lot of it easy to swallow (Mara Jade, the Skywalker and Solo kids, Chewie's death, etc.) But there's a lot that pretty insane. If you've never heard of the Yuuzhan Vong, and see Coruscant post-Vongforming, or see a delegation of Vong from Zonama Sekot, that'll be a tough pill to swallow. I think many people will have a "wtf?" moment.


The Vong for the most part don't have to be shown.

Yes cutting post-NJO does leave the "Vongforming" issue on Coruscant. But that and Chewie's death are the biggest issues.

The "greening" of Coruscant can be toned down somewhat. Jacen was supposedly working with the world-brain to do that anyway, and there's no reason to think that some "agent-orange" like defoliant doesn't exist in the GFFA. The trouble there could be minimized without trampling canon. The Vong themselves needn't even appear other than potential background characters.

Chewie's death is the hard one to work around. That I grant. A non-issue now but it could have been done.

Taral-DLOS wrote:
2- I think that line is REALLY arbitrary, and based purely on popularity. A lot of people liking the NJO, but fewer people liking the Dark Nest Trilogy, Legacy of the Force, Fate of the Jedi, and Legacy is both a) not a great way to draw a line, and b) not objectively demonstrable (even book sales don't tell the whole story). Dark Nest wasn't my favourite, but the other two series were fun, and Legacy was AMAZING. I know you need to draw a line somewhere, but basing it on popularity is strange, in my view.


Its not based on popularity. I won't deny that's a correlation, but the reason I pick that isn't because of that.

The movies are supposed to be set 20 or 30 years post-ANH. NJO is 25-29 years after so dovetales nicely with the 30 ABY figure.

The 30 ABY figure also makes more sense because Han and Leia's children are old enough to be in their late teens/early 20s at that point and able to have a better impact on the story (see TPM for why younger is a bad idea).

It is also reaonably possible to sum up the EU to that point in short terms - the Empire fought on for two decades and eventually surrendered. The galaxy survived a brutal alien invasion. Now peace reigns. (other than the above issue of dead walking carpet).

Summing up LOTF/FOTJ in a nutshell is...exceedingly difficult.

This also allows there to be a living version of Jacen and Mara. While we lose Anakin and Chewie, I think that's an OK tradeoff because we know that Lucas was against another Anakin.

Similarly, it sets up a galaxy that is finally unified and at peace (at least until whatever happens in the ST occurs).

Yes, the same argument could be made for the end of the Bantam books. The reason I personally prefer post-NJO in this case is the character development that occurred therin. But either one I would prefer to the current blank slate approach.

Legacy, despite quality, would be a casualty regardless. While I believe its possible to work around established backstory, I do think having a "100 year plan" laid out is a bad idea to go into things. Being rooted in place is one thing, having to grow to a predefined conclusion is another.

(I have consistently disliked that about legacy since inception)

Taral-DLOS wrote:
In my opinion, better to do a clean cut after Episode VI. Keep as much pre-ROTJ stuff as you can (but giving freedom to contradict the oldest stuff, like the Marvel and newstrip comics, or the Han Solo/Lando Calrissian adventures, or the Missions kids books, just to declutter 0 ABY), but abandon the post-ROTJ EU. Let it continue having new books if you want, even ones consistent with that era, but labeled Legends.


I would be willing to accept it if they would continue the legends series. In fact, that would be the only part of Star Wars I would follow. However, based on responses here and elsewhere, there are a LOT of people who feel that way, and Disney is smart enough to know that and has no plans to do so so that everyone has either "disney wars canon" or nothing new.

Valid choice to focus sales where they want it, but one I don't personally like or appreciate.
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 PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:56 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth_Henning
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DarthMRN wrote:
Agreed. There is no conceivable area of human endevour where fewer tools and opportunities doesn't also decrease the odds of success, all else being equal.


I'm going to point out that a surgeon comes into the room with a set variety of tools in existance, and a patient. They can't make much difference to either.

And that "limitation" had better not affect their success rate regardless of if the patient is in perfect condition or not.
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 PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:12 am Reply with quote  
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  DarthMRN
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I don't see your point. There are only so many useful surgical tools known to us. "Fewer tools" implies that there is more to be had. But if there aren't, there is no disadvantage. Unless you count lack of future inventions, which seems a little silly.

EDIT:
Wait, you are talking about skill at use. Though in this case tools and opportunities actually refers a lot to those skills. Someone doing their best to make a good Ep. VII has a "toolbox" of scriptwriting and filmmaking techniques to make something the human animal with certain cultural leanings will respond favourably to as a collective. If some or many of those are off-limits because the LU has to be respected, then the skills of the creators aren't to blame if the movie suffers for it. Those limitations, which provide no sure benefit to the film's quality, are.
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 PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:21 pm Reply with quote  
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  DarthMRN
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HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Twisted Evil

LucasBooks wrote:
The novelizations of the seven films--including The Clone Wars--are canon.


https://twitter.com/DelReyStarWars/status/461541040273764352

To clarify the funny part: Those novels contradict the movie canon on so many points, that the only way this can be true is if the old system, where bits and pieces are canon, while others are not, as tracked by the Holocron, is still in effect. And it was a big reason why we had all these levels, rather than a simple canon/non-canon divide.

Specifically, it means that they will keep sweeping discrepancies in supposedly canon material under the rug piecemeal, with only the Holocron users knowing what is actually canon and what isn't. Less than a week after declaring the LU dead on the justification that the NU canon will be equal between all media, we learn that lesser sources will be ignored piecemeal to preserve the whole -EXACTLY LIKE IT WAS BEFORE!!

Poor Story Group didn't manage to preserve the illusion that everything would be equal canon for even a week.
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 PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:26 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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Quote:
@DelReyStarWars: To clarify, movie novelizations are canon where they align with what is seen on screen in the 6 films and the Clone Wars animated movie.


https://twitter.com/DelReyStarWars/status/461579307341840384
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 PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:29 pm Reply with quote  
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  YodaBauer2442
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Which, really, doesn't' say anything. Because of course the stuff that aligns with the films is canon. It's in the films.
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 PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:57 pm Reply with quote  
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  DarthMRN
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There is the possibility that by "aligns" they mean the books are canon except when contradictory.

But on the other hand, under the old system stuff being tracked by element meant that these novels were described as having a certain canoncity just by grace of containing movie elements, even if they were superflous as sources.


Proves all NU canon isn't canon either way, though.
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 PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:04 pm Reply with quote  
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  Taral-DLOS
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Guys, someone started a "We Are Gathered Here Today" thread to remember the EU that was lost mere days ago. http://www.eucantina.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2000

This upsets me. Yes, the books can be said to "not count" anymore in continuity. Yes, characters introduced therein will not have their stories continued. These are sad things.

But the EU remains here, existing if not alive. Present and stable if not growing. Indeed, it may be more stable and somewhat restored now (consider: if TCW is canon and not Legends, then it can be argued that the 22-19 BBY era is mostly restored to its pre-2008 days, with a handful of really out-of-continuity titles that stand out on a weird level).

I know this shouldn't upset me. There are bigger problems in this world. But (and I know this is reductio ad absurdum) Disney has no plans to barge into our homes and steal our books and comics and video games. The characters will continue to exist, and the books will likely even continue to print (maybe even with new editions for some of the best ones, like Thrawn Trilogy, labeled as Legends). I am saddened that they won't be able to publish books that connect the Legacy of the Force/Fate of the Jedi material with the Legacy comics; that's a ripe era filled with amazing stories. And I'm saddened that we won't see more KOTOR and other ancient Jedi stuff (except more SWTOR, which I suspect will continue to be made). But I'm VERY happy that I own a massive collection of novels that I will be able to read until time and entropy destroy them by their own accord (books purchased not because they are good, but because they are Star Wars AND good).

I sincerely apologize for my rant. Perhaps I am in the fandom minority, and perhaps I need to accept that most people disagree with me on this. Perhaps I should remain silent on this issue, and not read stuff that will roil the blood.
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 PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:10 pm Reply with quote  
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  Skywalker2B
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You've got to be kidding me!!!! Really??!!!!

Here's my suggestion...

Keep everything "Legends", but release an "updated" novelization that removes all discrepencies with the films and say those new novelizations are now the "official" canon.

Funny thing is that I had an idea the other day that they may decide to pull certain material back from the "Legends" label because the material conforms with the "official" story without contridicting the movies or TCW (ex. Kenobi and/or Plageuis and possibly even some of the PT lead-in novels).


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 PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:05 pm Reply with quote  
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  Mara Jade Skywalker
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I think you all have a right to think it's silly to mourn, but I think we also have that right to mourn. Because I have to say, I am very sad. To me my Star Wars universe is dying. I understand where the mourners are coming from. We are pained. Sad
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 PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:24 pm Reply with quote  
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  Alan Skywalker V
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I've been thinking about the Clone Wars fiasco again.

When it boils down to it, only a small amount of the overall Star Wars material has been published from 2008-2014 while the film and TV series were ongoing. But just how much of this material actually contains references to the show events? Darth Plagueis and Lockdown obviously do, but it's small stuff like Maul's changed background.

Regarding the likes of Fate of the Jedi, we have Mortis.

However, if The Clone Wars references aren't elaborated on in great detail and show only characters like Ashoka aren't namedropped in material. is it possible that the original and new Clone Wars timelines can be separated with minimal fuss and the refs in FOTJ, Plagueis, Lockdown, ect. easily ignored or viewed as missions that won't be expanded upon?


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 PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:28 pm Reply with quote  
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  YodaBauer2442
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I think you all have a right to think it's silly to mourn, but I think we also have that right to mourn.


Of course you do! And it's not silly to mourn. I personally find is as sad to think that some are giving up on Star Wars as others think it's sad that it's "ending".
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 PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:44 pm Reply with quote  
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  Werehunter
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Taral-DLOS wrote:
Guys, someone started a "We Are Gathered Here Today" thread to remember the EU that was lost mere days ago. http://www.eucantina.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2000

This upsets me. Yes, the books can be said to "not count" anymore in continuity. Yes, characters introduced therein will not have their stories continued. These are sad things.



Since I created said thread, I'll respond. I think you took the thread the complete wrong way. Even your description about the thread being to remember the EU is not correct. It's about the characters as they were in that EU. While I might have used the words 'gone for good' in the thread, I wasn't referring to them not counting or that I'm boycotting. I even mentioned that yes some bits of the characters may be used in the future, though they'll likely be changed to fit the new universe.

The thread is about the fact that in a way these characters have died. There will be no more growth for the characters, no more stories told with these characters. We won't see Jag and Jania working together as a married couple. We won't see Piggy settle into his role as Wraith Leader. We won't see Ben's growth after being betrayed by a person he loved yet again. Even if those characters somehow make it into the new Star Wars universe, they will likely not be used in such a way. That is what the thread is about. I even mentioned in the thread, that it's not about bitching about the change but talking about these characters we love.

And while I'm not thrilled with losing the EU, I've not stated that they'll never see another cent from me. Admittedly, I did make a thread asking how people would react a while back, but I'll give the new books a chance. Well maybe not any of the books they are launching with, but I likely wouldn't have bought any of those anyways. None of them really interest me, outside of the Luke one and after my disappointment with the Leia and Han books, that one doesn't interest me much.


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