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 PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 12:50 am Reply with quote  
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  Salaris Vorn
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I'd just like to take the moment to point out that while I respect people who believe homosexuality is wrong, as defined in the Bible, I have to argue against that point of view being put into law. Namely on the grounds of the division of church and state, and specifically the First Amendment. I just don't see how the First Amendment could continue to function if a law was passed that was primarily based on a religious point of view. Because looking at the facts: does homosexuality hurt anyone? Probably no more than what a heterosexual is capable of. does it prevent the society from functioning in a normal way? Nope. So if it doesn't really hurt anyone, or prevent society from functioning why should it be illegal?

Now as far as gay marriage goes: I think that civil unions should be allowed, and if a church wants to by all means let them perform gay marriages. I do agree that passing a law forcing a church to perform gay marriage is bad, again on the same principle of division of church and state. I'd like to point out though that without a whole marriage license thing a heterosexual couple doesn't have legal rights either. So my main concern is that a gay couple should have the same legal rights as a heterosexual couple, because the law is not supposed to be based on any religion so from the legal point of view they should not be barred from having the same rights. As for same spiritual rights, well that between them and the Creator (or God, call it what you will).
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Okay, bare with me.......
 PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 1:15 am Reply with quote  
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  Kal_Skirata
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I am in a sugar rush at the moment so please understand I am trying to really keep my thoughts straight. Smile Here goes:

Okay I will admit this ( and I will get sooooooo much flack for this ), I was born and raised Catholic who spent 12 years in Catholic School. Until a certain point, I did believe that gay anything was wrong. I will even admit that I felt a certain disease that is out there was only for "those" people and it was Gods way of telling them that they are wrong.

Then you go to college and out in the world where you get exposed to everything. That little cocoon you where in expands and you get to thinking, "if God loves me for who I am, then he also loves them for who they are." I was raised, and I hear it when I do my twice a year Catholic thing, that God is Love. If you come to him for anything, he will not turn you away.

I will bring this up and it's as far as I will go about something that happened in my past. I've already mentioned, certain people did not go to my wedding. My wife and I went to visit the priest in preparation to get married as you're suppose to do in the church. BTW, she's Catholic too. The priest blinded sided me by pulling out a letter. The details of that letter and who it was from is also something I can not get into. He read the full letter but I'll summarize it by saying it was a letter asking him not marry us. He talked to the two of us for quite awhile about this "opinion" he held in his hand. And when it was all over he realized that we are good people. We had been through hell and he could see that for what we had been through, we deserve to be happy. He also told us that if you come to the church and ask for a Sacrament, you should not be turned away.

So I go back to what I was taught and I believe that God is Love. What hurts now in the day and age, people are twisting words to their belief. I'll take Prop 8 here in CA as the example, If you vote "Yes" on 8 - you against Gay Marriage. If you vote "No" on it - you are for Gay Marriage.

Mara Jade - don't be afraid to join the conversation. FatalFist I agree with Autoban - jump on in, neither of us appear to bite - well hard anyway Smile

BTW - now that I have a chance to read this again - I need to knock off the sugar. Smile Too many thoughts. (yawn)

It's almost midnight (yawn) here and I need sleep. Being an old man - (yawn) I need to get to bed soon since it's soooooo latzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz-
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Re: Okay, bare with me.......
 PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 1:50 am Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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Kal_Skirata wrote:
you get to thinking, "if God loves me for who I am, then he also loves them for who they are."


This is where i can only half agree with you. Yes god is love, but keep in mind he is just too.

Just my opinions to those of you that are christian.

Jesus wasnt always this stereotypical loving hippy like figure. Sure he loved everyone, rich or poor, gay or otherwise. But the thing is, he loved the person, not their deeds. For example, he met the one person he healed at the pool of Bethesda and told him to go and sin no more less a greater punishment comes upon him. Or what about the dinner with the tax collecters and pharisees? He called them a brood of vipers and called them out on their deeds. Then there was the one women that engaged in adultry. Jesus said she is forgiven and to go and sin no more. He did not except her the way she was. He excepted her as a human being, and loved her and told her to turn from her previous ways. And another time when he said he did not come for peace, but to divide (those who follow him or choose not to). There are hundreds of verses like this. He is quite clear about it.


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 PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 6:58 am Reply with quote  
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  FatalFist
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Well---I'll hav to side with MJS here I guess....Religons(Not Only the BiBle, but I think 'every' religon or every major religon is against homosexuality) And yes I think religon is what I base my life on....
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I mean if we do it without religon, its nt easy to set morals---I mean generally and logically If I say someones decision in life is his to make, and as long as it doesnt effect me I should be okay with it. BUT>>>>>Imagine a Guy running a prostitute den in the neighborhood....or some drugs thingy.....I wont exactly be happy now would i be...I'd like his operations wrapped up.
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Talking abt prostitution.....logically its his/her body...and he should be able to with it wat he wills....but its WROnG.....kinda like a guy running arnd naked---its his body if he doesnt want clothes its his choice....BUt its WRoNG right?----(Not talking abt homosexuality here just talkin abt other stuff that 'doesnt really effect me' yet I think I'd like a law stopping it.
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Ok somebody stop me...Ive been pretty logical sooo far(I hope so)...but pretty soon i start ranting=p...make me a ranting thread pls=p.......
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 PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 7:01 am Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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Very good clarification Autobon. It can be easy to forget such things with so many people spewing out universal love or damnation. Tis why they say actions define the person, not well meaning thoughts.
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"I believe toys resonate with us as humans, we can hold them them, it's tactile, real! They are totems for our extended beliefs and imaginations. A fetish for ideas that hold as much interest and passion as old religious relics for some. We display them in our homes. They show who we are. They are signals for similar thinking people. A way we connect with each other...and I guess thats why I do toys. That connection." -Ashley Wood


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 PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 9:30 am Reply with quote  
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  Old Master Ben
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Quote:
Jesus wasnt always this stereotypical loving hippy like figure. Sure he loved everyone, rich or poor, gay or otherwise. But the thing is, he loved the person, not their deeds


Another way I've heard this phrased: God hates the Sin, but loves the Sinner.


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Re: Okay, bare with me.......
 PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 9:57 am Reply with quote  
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  Mara Jade Skywalker
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Kal_Skirata wrote:
"if God loves me for who I am, then he also loves them for who they are."


To address this, simply because I disagree to a point. God loves everyone, that's absolutely right. God will forgive any sin/wrong doing. However, the person has to repent of their sin. They can't just gallavant around sinning all the time and say, "Well God loves me...He doesn't care if we sin. Besides...long as I repent twice a year, I'm okay." Or whatever. But God has to punish wrong. He can't just let it go crazy. It's no different than a parent punishing a child or the government punishing a criminal. God says, "You've done something wrong, and you need to pay for it." He still loves you, definitely, but He's being a just God. Just because your parents put you in the corner or ground you for a week doesn't mean they don't love you anymore. Here's the funny thing, though:

God created Man. He said, "Here's you world, Man. I'll only give you a few rules. Very simple to follow. Be good and have fun." However, Man didn't listen and broke one of the rules. And by Man I do mean both man and woman...to clarify that. God said, "Man, we've got a problem. You broke one of my rules, and you need to be punished for it. Get out of the Garden." But God didn't want to forsake Man forever. So He offered an alternative, "I'm going to send my Son, my one and only Son, to die on the cross and pay for your sins. I told you not to sin, and you did it anyway. There's got to be a punishment, somebody's got to pay. So here's how we're going to do it: My Son will die on the cross for your sins. This will open the way to Heaven for you, but you've got to accept the gift of my Son and I. Repent of your sins and ask my forgiveness, and that's all there is to it. In the everlasting scheme of things, you'll be able to live in Heaven with me forever." And Man said, "Okay, sounds great." But here's the thing: We all sin, period. Point out one person to me who's never done anything wrong. You won't find one. So we all need to be punished, right? But God made it quite simple. All we have to do is say we're sorry and ask for forgiveness. And that's it! I don't know, but that seems like quite the loving God to me. He told us to be good, we weren't, and now all we have to do is say we're sorry? He sent his own Son to take our punishment? I can't imagine a more loving God than that...we deserve a punishment! But in this case we won't get one. Provided, of course, that we do repent. Otherwise it's our own fault.

So, not to get off on a rant, but it's just a big deal to me how very loving our God really is, and people don't even realize it. If God punishes someone, He must not love them...that's what a lot of people say. But that's so far from the truth! The fact that God even tolerates our corrupted race (and by this I mean every single one of us) is absolutely amazing in itself. I don't know if I could love a creation of mine that disobeys me at every turn and when it does say it's sorry, does something bad again the very next day. And yet God does that every single day, with every single one of us.
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 PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 10:27 am Reply with quote  
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  FatalFist
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Funny but thats pretty close to Quranic teaching, though its a bit different I guess.
We believe that the 'ppl of the books' as in the race that got the books.(Like the Bible, Torah) will enter paradise....in the end everyone does...BUT...If you've been bad you first hav to go through Hell....Uknow like everyone WILL end up in Heaven, but the bad ppl wiiil hav to go through hell.(BUt paradise is the final abode I guess)....
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 PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 11:12 am Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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FatalFist wrote:
(Not Only the BiBle, but I think 'every' religon or every major religon is against homosexuality)


Yes your right. Islam, Judaism, etc. They also dont agree with homosexuality. Another reason why people shouldnt have to be forced to except the fact that marriage is can be between a man and man or woman and a woman.


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 PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:28 pm Reply with quote  
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  Anakinlover89
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I'm a Christian too but I completely disagree. One we are America home of the free. Telling people they can't get married is wrong just because they are homosexuals. I know that God looks down on homosexuality but he is the Judge not me and he commanded all of us not to judge one another.
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 PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:19 pm Reply with quote  
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  Mara Jade Skywalker
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Yes, that's true. But he did not say that we shouldn't judge what is wrong in a judicial system. In that case, we shouldn't be allowed to try a murderer, because remember...we're not supposed to judge. And that just doesn't quite work.

Soooo...like I said, what they do in the privacy of their home is something they are responsible to God for. But I don't think it should be allowed to be a public matter...the Bible specifically calls it out as wrong:

Leviticus 20:13: If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
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 PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:24 pm Reply with quote  
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  Salaris Vorn
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Autobon wrote:
FatalFist wrote:
(Not Only the BiBle, but I think 'every' religon or every major religon is against homosexuality)


Yes your right. Islam, Judaism, etc. They also dont agree with homosexuality. Another reason why people shouldnt have to be forced to except the fact that marriage is can be between a man and man or woman and a woman.


I'd just like to point out that Islam and Judaism are pretty much related (Christianity more or less evolving from Judaism and Islam basing itself on the preceeding two). So its not surprising that they all agree homosexuality is bad. And you mean can't be between a man and man/woman and woman right (it currently reads as marriage can be)?

For record as far as I know Native American religions find homosexuality as acceptable natural thing. Not sure what Buddhism or Hinduism think though and those could arguably be major religions. I'm sure a study of ancient religions whose cultures are now dead would produce interesting results as well.

Quote:
One we are America home of the free. Telling people they can't get married is wrong just because they are homosexuals. I know that God looks down on homosexuality but he is the Judge not me and he commanded all of us not to judge one another.


I agree. Again I'll also point out that it would be against American law to ban something when it is motivated, at least in part, by religious principles. It goes against the First Amendment. Forcing a church to perform a marriage would also be against the law (for the reason of separation of church and state), however allowing for equal legal protection and rights is perfectly within the governments legal boundaries.
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 PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 6:05 pm Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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Anakinlover89 wrote:
he commanded all of us not to judge one another.


I am curious as to where you found this in the bible?


Quote:
One we are America home of the free


I think you mean America home of the **free**. We do have laws, and people cannot do whatever they want. And ok, if you honestly believe gays should be able to openly express themselves and pass laws about their behavior, then i do encourage you to take a look at other sexual ideas. Pedophiles for example, shouldnt be locked up and looked at as evil. After all, its just their sexual orientation right? Who are we to judge them anyways.

Mara Jade also had a good post about this above.


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 PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:01 pm Reply with quote  
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  Salaris Vorn
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Autobon wrote:
And ok, if you honestly believe gays should be able to openly express themselves and pass laws about their behavior, then i do encourage you to take a look at other sexual ideas. Pedophiles for example, shouldnt be locked up and looked at as evil.


Whoa, put on the brakes there. It sounds like you are assuming that homosexuals by their nature hurt people like pedophiles, and that is outright untrue and offensive. You are comparing two very different things. Homosexuals in general don't hurt anyone, both people are typically consenting partners (and in the case that they aren't I'd like to point out heterosexuals are guilty not always of having willing partners either).

Since homosexuality isn't illegal who exactly gets hurt by allowing homosexuals to have equal legal marriage rights? Note I draw a distinction between legal (as can be performed by a justice of the peace) and religious marriage (only capable of being administered by a religious leader).

Pedophiles however are not seeking mutual consent to their activities. Outlawing that is protecting children who are at an age when they aren't capable of being consenting sexual partners. I'd like to point out a pedophile is not strictly limited to being homosexual, heterosexuals can be pedophiles too. Its also not an "orientation" in the sense of homosexual versus heterosexual, it could be arguably a sub-group of both.

I'd also like to point out again that many Native American religions see homosexuality as a perfectly acceptable natural activity so there is no consensus of homosexuality is bad in religions. There is also evidence of homosexuality in other species of animals. With that evidence I would argue that homosexuality is not unnatural per se and that the only reason it is considered immoral is because of the way we construct our understanding of right and wrong within our culture. For example, I don't know of any culture that doesn't object to murder, therefore since it seems a fairly universal thing to consider it immoral it must be. The fact that many non-Western cultures do not consider homosexuality is immoral it seems to me our understanding of homosexuality is a product of our culture and no more.
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 PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:26 pm Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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Salaris Vorn wrote:
Whoa, put on the brakes there. It sounds like you are assuming that homosexuals by their nature hurt people like pedophiles, and that is outright untrue and offensive.


I did not assume that by nature homosexuals hurt people. Read what i said again. I said that if you believe you are not to judge others, then why judge people like pedophiles for example. I was thinking more along the lines of those who just sit at home and go on forums or look up things about it. And yes, it is perverted, and i think homosexuality is too. That is the link i was trying to make, that people say dont judge people for thier 'sexual orientation.'

Sorry if my message didnt come across as clearly as i would have hoped. I do not and have not ever believed homosexuals are hurtful to others by nature. While i understand why you took my post the wrong way, I wish you would have asked me to clarify before accusing me of things i dont believe.

Quote:
there is no consensus of homosexuality is bad in religions


No there is not. I pointed out some big religions that do believe it is. I pointed it out because I wanted to show how large a group is affected. And as for Native Americans, Hindus, etc. I have no idea if they believe it in or not. If you could find some links or something that would be appreciated, because i dont know much about those groups.

Quote:
There is also evidence of homosexuality in other species of animals


Scientist both for and against the idea that animals exhibit these behaviors have stated that they do not know much about it, or even that it is homosexual as we humans might describe it.

And besides some animals eat their own feces, or their own vomit, and for that matter several animals eat their own offspring. And that is not considered natural as for as I am concerned.


Last edited by Autobon on Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:57 pm; edited 2 times in total


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