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 PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:52 am Reply with quote  
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  Dog-Poop_Walker
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What exactly is the spiritual authority of Queen Elizabeth II?

At least our leaders don't claim to speak for God. And unlike the Queen, even the Pope is still chosen by an election.
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 PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:59 am Reply with quote  
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  Skywalker2B
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Reepicheep wrote:
Just a couple things about the idea of the divinity of Christ in the Gospels.

1) It is true that Jesus never explicitly says, "I am God" in the synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke)


Sorry, Reep, but I have to disagree with this statement. In Matthew 26:62-65 Jesus essentially says that He is the Son of God (2nd in the trinity). They find him guilty of blasphemy (claiming to be God).

And, then in Mark 14:60-64, we see the same "trial" before the Pharisees:

Then the high priest stood up before them and asked Jesus, “Don’t you have any answer to what these men are testifying against you?” But he kept silent and didn’t answer at all. The high priest asked him again, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?”

Jesus said, “I AM, and ‘you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power’ and ‘coming with the clouds of heaven.’”

Then the high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we still need witnesses?” he asked. “You have heard his blasphemy! What is your verdict?” All of them condemned him as deserving death.

BTW, "I AM" is the same "I AM" that spoke with Moses in the burning bush...and the Jews/Pharisees understood that's exactly what Jesus was claiming. For the Pharisees, the whole basis for their demanding that Jesus be crucified was for his blasphemy...claiming to be God.

Reepicheep wrote:
2) Apart from whether or not Jesus claimed to be God, the Gospel writers evidently believed He was.

For example, at the beginning of Mark, the author applies prophecies about a messenger preceding the coming of the LORD in Isaiah (40:3) and Malachi (3:1) to John the Baptist preceding Jesus.

Near the beginning of Matthew the author names Jesus "Emmanuel" which means "God with us" and is a reference to Isaiah. This is mirrored at the end of Matthew when Jesus assures His followers, "I am with you always".

And then there's this in Luke (8:38-39): The man from whom the demons had gone out begged to go with him, but Jesus sent him away, saying, “Return home and tell how much God has done for you.” So the man went away and told all over town how much Jesus had done for him.

Luke appears to be equating Jesus with God.


Good examples. I'd add to that from Matthew 16 where Simon Peter claims that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.


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 PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:38 am Reply with quote  
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  Taral-DLOS
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Dog-Poop_Walker wrote:
What exactly is the spiritual authority of Queen Elizabeth II?

At least our leaders don't claim to speak for God. And unlike the Queen, even the Pope is still chosen by an election.


Her spiritual authority is largely symbolic, I understand. And I don't believe there is a claim that she speaks for God, but coronation is a Christian ceremony.

Most of what I know comes from this video about the UK. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNu8XDBSn10 Relevant bits about the role of Christianity in British monarchy starts at around 2:40.

I don't want to misrepresent anything; I don't know much about the subject. I just thought it was an interesting and amusing aside.
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 PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:43 am Reply with quote  
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  Dog-Poop_Walker
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hehe. I was mostly being tongue in cheek with that bit, just to see what you would say. The Queen and Monarchy is a subject that I have a lot to say about, but that's best for another thread.
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Spread out all around us is a petrified world, a world of Things, where we ourselves, our gestures, and even our feelings figure in as Things. Nothing can belong to us as truly our own in such a landscape of death. Under commodity occupation the most concrete truth about everything is the truth of it's infinite replaceablity.


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 PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:26 am Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Skywalker2B wrote:
Reepicheep wrote:
Just a couple things about the idea of the divinity of Christ in the Gospels.

1) It is true that Jesus never explicitly says, "I am God" in the synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke)


Sorry, Reep, but I have to disagree with this statement. In Matthew 26:62-65 Jesus essentially says that He is the Son of God (2nd in the trinity). They find him guilty of blasphemy (claiming to be God).

And, then in Mark 14:60-64, we see the same "trial" before the Pharisees:

Then the high priest stood up before them and asked Jesus, “Don’t you have any answer to what these men are testifying against you?” But he kept silent and didn’t answer at all. The high priest asked him again, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?”

Jesus said, “I AM, and ‘you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power’ and ‘coming with the clouds of heaven.’”

Then the high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we still need witnesses?” he asked. “You have heard his blasphemy! What is your verdict?” All of them condemned him as deserving death.

BTW, "I AM" is the same "I AM" that spoke with Moses in the burning bush...and the Jews/Pharisees understood that's exactly what Jesus was claiming. For the Pharisees, the whole basis for their demanding that Jesus be crucified was for his blasphemy...claiming to be God.

Oh, I think you're right!

I'm always careful with the title Son of God because I know it can mean different things in different contexts. It can be applied to Jesus as a claim of divinity (i.e. the second person of the Trinity), but it can also be used as a descriptor of the Messiah, or as a way of de-throning Caesar (Caesar Augustus also referred to himself as the "son of god" i.e. divi filius) for example.

Even the use of "I am" could conceivably be coincidental... until the Pharisees make the accusation of blasphemy. That's the part that jumped out at me. Obviously claiming to be the Messiah wouldn't be a form of blasphemy, but claiming to be God would - unless, of course, it was true.
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