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Episode VIII Discussion Thread (Spoilers!)
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 PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:54 am Reply with quote  
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  Taral-DLOS
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Skywalker2B wrote:
Anyone else listen to the SyFy podcast with Leland Chee where he talks about Legends and the new canon (and about the new Star Wars Land, among other things)?

Apparently, he never really talked to GL, about continuity stuff. It was obvious, when KK came into the company that there would be more movies, but they didn't expect the sale to Disney. And, the big news, is where he said that the Legends decision was because of Chewie. It was because Chewie was "hard to write" in the books because he doesn't "talk" that publishing decided to kill him off in Vector Prime vice another character. But, since they (Leland, KK, etc.) couldn't see making a SW ST movie where Chewie was dead...well....we got Legends. To me, it sounds like they just wanted to hit the Easy button. I think they could have handled things differently to where they didn't have to throw out everything that came before.


I read that exact thing and think that old Lucasfilm was lazy. Admitting that they killed Chewie because he was hard to write in books is terrible. To me, old Lucasfilm used the Easy button. New Lucasfilm looked at the setting they could've been bound by and opted to go a different way, keeping key characters. It is easier to do a hard reset then to push your story into existing continuity, and I think the results are better for it.

And then, they opted to continue printing the Legends books and make them available to fans new and old. They didn't need to do that, but basically every pre-2015 Star Wars novel is still available in bookstores (often with the Legends label on it), and Legends comics are being reprinted in Marvel Omnibuses and Epic Collections. I think part of that is keeping Legends fans at least partially satisfied. People wanting to read those old books can still find them, buy them, read them, and enjoy them.

Dog-Poop_Walker wrote:


We are mad because these two movies collectively have said: The Rebellion was a waste of time and didn't accomplish anything, and the Jedi suck and they are the problem. Did they have a Star Trek episode that blew up the Enterprise and had everyone say that the Federation sucks? If they did, were people happy about that?


Yes, it was called "Star Trek Beyond" and it was the best of the three Abramsverse Star Trek movies.
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 PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:26 am Reply with quote  
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  Skywalker2B
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I know it's hard to believe, but it is what Leland Chee said. Go find episode #13 of the SyFy Fandom Files podcast and listen for yourselves.

But, again, I'll reiterate that I believe most of hollyweird to be liars. They call it "market strategy", but it's really just lies and deceit what they tell the public.

I was listening to the latest Echo Base podcast (on the Random Chatter network) and they tried to give a different meaning to what Pablo (I believe it was him) said about canon post-Disney purchase. He originally said that everything from that point on would be canon (once they deemed the EU stuff "Legends" and established that only the movies, TCW, and a couple other things still canon). He said everything, in all mediums, would be part of the overall canon. But the guys on the podcast tried to say that he said something along the lines of everything that is canon will all be part of the canon story, but that there would be stuff that is not canon (they were talking about people being upset that the book "From a Certain Point of View" was non-canon). Ummm...THAT'S NOT WHAT PABLO SAID!

But, hey, I understand. Probably, when Pablo said everything would be canon, that was true at the time that he said it. But then they went and changed their minds about canon when some people pitched some interesting stories that just wouldn't fit in canon. (what's the difference between that and fan fiction?) So, they published some non-canon stories.

Oh, and apparently, the Story Group's job is ONLY to keep track of all SW data (sort of like maintaining Wookipedia) and being a resource for SW content creators (authors, directors, script writers, game developers, etc.). It's NOT their job to maintain story continuity or even to suggest story arcs/ideas. It's not even their job to guard against mis-characterization. To me, the Story Group sounds like a misnomer. Based on Leland's comments in the podcast about the SG, I'd say a better name for the group/team would be SW Database Managers.

The problem is that this doesn't jive with another thing that Pablo said in a podcast I heard over a year or so ago. He said that they had the whole story mapped out and that they had plans on when and how they would tell various parts of the story. We now know that was/is not true. Sure, they may have knowledge of stories being created with about a year or so advance of release (referring to lead time to write/publish books or 1-2 years for a movie script). But that's about it. We now know that both JJ and Rian (and I'm assuming most of the book and comic authors) were/are given pretty much creative freedom to tell whatever story they want. Sure, there are probably some vague/broad perimeters in which they have to meet/stay, some beats that they have to hit, but that's about it.

I'm pretty sure that you can see how this ties into the discussion about TLJ.


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 PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:05 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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I'm doubtful that Chewie was the only reason for ditching the EU. If that was the case, why couldn't they just have a novel or comic explaining that Chewbacca didn't really die at Sernpidal? I know it would be ridiculous, but bringing Maul back was also ridiculous, and I think most fans would be fine with it if it was a choice between bringing Chewie back and den-canonizing the EU.
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 PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:32 pm Reply with quote  
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  Mara Jade Skywalker
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Skywalker2B wrote:
I know it's hard to believe, but it is what Leland Chee said. Go find episode #13 of the SyFy Fandom Files podcast and listen for yourselves.


Totally believe you, I just can't believe he is telling the whole truth. Otherwise that's extremely disheartening.
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 PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:46 pm Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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Mara Jade Skywalker wrote:
Totally believe you, I just can't believe he is telling the whole truth. Otherwise that's extremely disheartening.


I feel like it's something he threw out in the moment to appease fans and I'm almost certain he's regretting it right now.
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 PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:59 pm Reply with quote  
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  Skywalker2B
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No, seriously, go listen to the podcast. I don't think it's that long. It is pretty interesting and the interviewer pretty much lets Leland talk most of the time.

I've seen articles about that interview on other various sites too. That's what spurred me to listen to it myself. At this point, it's spilled milk anyway. *shrug*

One thing that I find...ummm...interesting....is the amount of "explaining" RJ and various others are having to do because of the TLJ and TFA. Not to mention all of the various podcasters, facebook pages, and websites that feel they have to defend the new stuff against fan disappointment.


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 PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:49 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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I'll listen to the podcast sometime when I have time.

Skywalker2B wrote:
One thing that I find...ummm...interesting....is the amount of "explaining" RJ and various others are having to do because of the TLJ and TFA. Not to mention all of the various podcasters, facebook pages, and websites that feel they have to defend the new stuff against fan disappointment.

The thing that annoys me is that they can afford to disappoint Star Wars fans because we'll keep coming back regardless of what they do. Speaking for myself, there is literally nothing they could do that would keep me from seeing a Star Wars film in theatres. Because I'm a Star Wars fan and that's what I do.

I made the decision to not see TLJ twice in theatres because of how much I disliked this new take on Star Wars and I didn't want to support something that I really disliked, but there's no way I'm missing Episode IX.
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 PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:14 pm Reply with quote  
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  Taral-DLOS
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Reepicheep wrote:

The thing that annoys me is that they can afford to disappoint Star Wars fans because we'll keep coming back regardless of what they do. Speaking for myself, there is literally nothing they could do that would keep me from seeing a Star Wars film in theatres. Because I'm a Star Wars fan and that's what I do.



And don't forget that for every die-hard fan that didn't like the movie (but will still go to the next one), there's a new fan that's drawn into the story of Rey and Kylo Ren, sincerely looking forward for more, similar content.

This forum (and all online fora, really) is something of an echo chamber on these subjects. Only die-hard Star Wars fans meet on a forum associated with a nearly-defunct fan site to discuss Star Wars. Most people who are that big of fans and had been for years don't like The Last Jedi (to varying degrees).

If Rian Johnson only looked at places like this, he would think that "only that weird Taral guy liked my movie!". But he's getting feedback from a number of sources, box office receipts being a very important one.
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 PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:51 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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^ You're right. From a business perspective, it makes a lot more sense to draw in new people than trying to placate hardcore Star Wars fans because, like I said, we're a guaranteed audience.

I'm in kind of a weird position now where, if TLJ is any indication, Disney/Lucasfilm are intent on reinventing Star Wars to the point where it is fundamentally something different, so am I still a fan? My love of Star Wars goes beyond superficial things like lightsabers and spaceships. The new films have that, but they're lacking the core of Star Wars and that core is what made me a fan in the first place.

Sure lightsabers are cool, but it's the mythology, the sincerity, the heroism, the romance, the hopefulness, the novel idea of a pre-modern story in a futuristic setting that made me keep coming back for more. Without that, I might stop coming back one day.
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 PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:26 pm Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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So I'm in a weird place on this. I actually like TLJ, but I have major hangups about it that I would want addressed going forward.

I love the ideas of failure, of legacy being a burden (these were EU themes in the prequel era, with the arrogant Jedi Council, and the Legacy era with the Solo siblings struggling under the burden of their parents). I thought they could have been explored more in the EU and I'm glad we're doing so now, even though I don't agree with all of the decisions made.

The thing that makes it hard for me is that the new films are fundamentally better as films than the prequels are. They aren't as good as the originals yet, but they're better than anything released in my lifetime for onscreen SW (so basically just the Clone Wars film and the prequels).

Personally I started this whole thing out enraged and annoyed by more films even happening, but I'm growing to have fun with this and embrace it. This is a different animal than we had before, but I think it kind of works for me in a lot of ways that mirror the releases of the OT (or at least the historical context I've researched on them).
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 PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:18 am Reply with quote  
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  Taral-DLOS
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Reepicheep wrote:

Sure lightsabers are cool, but it's the mythology, the sincerity, the heroism, the romance, the hopefulness, the novel idea of a pre-modern story in a futuristic setting that made me keep coming back for more. Without that, I might stop coming back one day.


I would submit that The Last Jedi has all of these. The only issue is that there's exactly one character for whom many of these traits are absent, and that character (until the end) happens to be Luke Skywalker.
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 PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:41 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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@Taral: I thought it was very light on mythology, which was especially frustrating because there were avenues that could have been explored, but were just dropped (i.e. Snoke, the Knights of Ren, the First Jedi Temple).

The sincerity was hurt a lot by the humour for me. The sincerity is one of the things that really sticks out to me in Lucas's Star Wars films. It would be so easy to poke fun at things happening on screen, but it's played straight. Sure there's humour, but it's approproately placed. When it needs to be serious, it is. Take the duel between Luke and Vader in ESB. It's honestly kind of cheesey, and goodness knows it's been parodied to death in other media, but because it's played with such sincerity in the original, it's actually emotionally compelling. There were many moments of misplaced humour in TLJ that ruined the scene for me. Many ruined scenes ruin the movie. The actors did well with what they were given and any sincerity that came through did so in spite of the script imo.

Heroism is an interesting one and I think it makes your point ring the most true. I remember thinking that this felt like a move that was taking a shot at the concept of heroism because Luke is deconstructed as a hero, Finn's heroic sacrifice is interrupted, and Poe's insurrection is portrayed as hot-headed and foolish. Honestly though, I don't think I would mind the Poe and Finn thing in isolation. It's the characterization of Luke that casts a negative light over the whole film for me and then I see those instances as just more reason to dislike the film. I will always prefer a heroic sacrifice over an interrupted one and the message of "Shut up and do as your told because the people in authority know what they're doing" seems very un-Star Wars to me, but if Luke had been portrayed differently, I would have been fine with them for the sake of variety... especially because this is the middle act of the story. A similar thing to what happened to Poe in TLJ happened to Luke in ESB (e.g. going against the advice of Yoda and Obi-Wan, rushing off and trying to be the hero, but failing miserably) after all. And also Finn's failed attempt at a heroic sacrifice is offset by Holdo's actual sacrifice which was glorious.

In some ways I don't think the creators of the ST understand romantic story-telling. Things like Han and Leia being estranged in TFA and Luke being a burned out old man are very jarring in their cynicism to me compared to the fairy tale-like quality of the originals.

The hopefulness of the original Saga being undone. This movie made me feel depressed for a couple days after seeing it. All of the Lucas films left me feeling uplifted to some degree - including ESB and RotS, which are full of darkness but there's still an ultimate feeling of hope by the end. You could say that TLJ ended on a hopeful note, but I was so burned out by everything that preceded it, that it barely left a ripple.

And finally whereas the Lucas films felt like they had an ancient heart underneath, TLJ felt... I don't know the exact word... someone more versed in modern philosophy could better describe this... but it felt post-modern, nihilistic, or deconstructionistic. An easy word is "cynical". ESB and RotS were dark, but I don't think I would call them cynical. Same goes for R1.
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 PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:00 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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I need to check out that Leland podcast. However, his story about Chewy contradicts Randy Stradley's story about Chewbacca. Randy said he was at the the table when everyone was discussing who they would kill for Vector Prime. Randy said it was his suggestion to kill Chewbacca as it would have the most impact without killing one of the big three. You could kill Lando, but it wouldn't have the same impact on anyone. Chewbacca, however...everyone loved him.
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 PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:49 am Reply with quote  
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  Taral-DLOS
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Darth Skuldren wrote:
I need to check out that Leland podcast. However, his story about Chewy contradicts Randy Stradley's story about Chewbacca. Randy said he was at the the table when everyone was discussing who they would kill for Vector Prime. Randy said it was his suggestion to kill Chewbacca as it would have the most impact without killing one of the big three. You could kill Lando, but it wouldn't have the same impact on anyone. Chewbacca, however...everyone loved him.


That's right; I remember that now. And there was an interview with a lot of the creators (I think Sue Rostoni, plus a few other editors and authors) in the end of The Unifying Force. They said they wanted to kill SOMEONE, and someone asked what the saddest movie they'd ever seen was, and the consensus was Old Yeller. So they decided to kill the equivalent of the family dog.
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 PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:51 pm Reply with quote  
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  Skywalker2B
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Darth Skuldren wrote:
I need to check out that Leland podcast. However, his story about Chewy contradicts Randy Stradley's story about Chewbacca. Randy said he was at the the table when everyone was discussing who they would kill for Vector Prime. Randy said it was his suggestion to kill Chewbacca as it would have the most impact without killing one of the big three. You could kill Lando, but it wouldn't have the same impact on anyone. Chewbacca, however...everyone loved him.


I think only a long time EU fan would remember something like that...and not even all of them. For example, as a long time EU fan I didn't remember that Randy said that before you reminded me. I thought Leland was around back then?


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