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 PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:32 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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The evil is spreading. Another has fallen to the Chillax Side...
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 PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:08 pm Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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Life Is The Path wrote:
The evil is spreading. Another has fallen to the Chillax Side...


Have you ever seen the Urban Dictionary? Their Chillax is funny! But their Jedi is priceless! #5 especially!
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 PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:09 pm Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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#4 for Jedi:

The most persuasive people in the entire galaxy. Even their lies are persuasive. They train at McDonalds.
Exe 1
Stormtrooper: Let me see your identification.
Obi-Wan: (waves his hand) You don't need to see his identification.
Stormtrooper: We don't need to see his identification.

Exe 2
Guy: I'd like a big mac, please.
Cashier(The jedi's secret identity):Buy a drink and fries
Guy: Yeah. A drink & fries.

Most jedis eventually becomes politicians, CEOs, marketers, lawyers & PR consultants.
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 PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:19 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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I've finally had an opportunity to listen to the latest podcast, and I challenge the assertion that Starkiller is a clone in TFU2!

My experience with the story was through reading the novel first, which I thought was pretty heavily slanted toward Starkiller being the original via the anecdotal evidence like Khommite cloners trying to eliminate FS due to it mentally damaging the clones, Kota's insistence, and so forth. Playing the game seemed to suggest the same to me. When I got the dark side ending, I thought "What...? This completely ruins the story to the game."

I thought it made no sense that Vader would go to the effort of hiring Boba Fett to recover Starkiller if this Starkiller was like the 50th failed clone, and he already had another one on the way. Or to the effort of drawing a rebel fleet to attack Kamino. When I saw the "Distant Thunder" cinematics, I thought they were as "Infinities" as the dark side ending, because it makes no sense that the Dark Apprentice existed and not act in the light ending.

And even if Starkiller is a clone, he appears to be a clone in the same sense that Bevel Lemelisk was a clone. I believe it was in Darksaber which revealed that Palpatine seemed to enjoy executing Lemelisk for minor transgressions, and then reviving him via cloning. The last one was executed by the New Republic. If it's good enough for the New Republic to consider Lemelisk's clone essentially the same person as the man that designed the Death Star, it's good enough for me. Starkiller in TFU2 is the same Starkiller as in the first game! So his obsession with Juno never struck me as creepy in that sense.

Also there's some other stuff that suggests to me he wasn't a clone anyway, like the databank entry for the aberrant clones has the scientist bemoaning the fact that they weren't permitted to examine the original person they were cloning (which also seems to conflict with "Distant Thunder," suggesting its status as Infinities IMO). My whole reading was that Vader revived Starkiller again, as he did on the Empirical, used some sort of mindwipe/mind-rub/whatever on him, and tried to convince him he was a clone while his scientists worked to clone him as a contingency plan. He basically did to Starkiller what the Jedi Council did to Revan.

The whole game smacked of a "Matrix Reloaded' half the story with TFU3 answering what Starkiller was and how Juno survived.


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 PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:22 pm Reply with quote  
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  Taral-DLOS
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Hey guys,

Love the podcast!

May I ask if there's going to be a new EU Cast this week? Since it's a weekly release I thought one would be out by now. If not, is there a schedule?
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 PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:34 pm Reply with quote  
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  Old Master Ben
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Hey there!

We had some trouble doing the podcast this week. Mark has a new schedule for work, but he didn't get it until the last minute, and there wasn't any spare time. We will be recording an episode tomorrow, and that will be released on Monday.

We'll also be announcing the Knight Errant contest winner in that episode.

Thanks for the kind words! Very Happy


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 PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:04 pm Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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LivingJediDream wrote:
I've finally had an opportunity to listen to the latest podcast, and I challenge the assertion that Starkiller is a clone in TFU2!

My experience with the story was through reading the novel first, which I thought was pretty heavily slanted toward Starkiller being the original via the anecdotal evidence like Khommite cloners trying to eliminate FS due to it mentally damaging the clones, Kota's insistence, and so forth. Playing the game seemed to suggest the same to me. When I got the dark side ending, I thought "What...? This completely ruins the story to the game."

I thought it made no sense that Vader would go to the effort of hiring Boba Fett to recover Starkiller if this Starkiller was like the 50th failed clone, and he already had another one on the way. Or to the effort of drawing a rebel fleet to attack Kamino. When I saw the "Distant Thunder" cinematics, I thought they were as "Infinities" as the dark side ending, because it makes no sense that the Dark Apprentice existed and not act in the light ending.

And even if Starkiller is a clone, he appears to be a clone in the same sense that Bevel Lemelisk was a clone. I believe it was in Darksaber which revealed that Palpatine seemed to enjoy executing Lemelisk for minor transgressions, and then reviving him via cloning. The last one was executed by the New Republic. If it's good enough for the New Republic to consider Lemelisk's clone essentially the same person as the man that designed the Death Star, it's good enough for me. Starkiller in TFU2 is the same Starkiller as in the first game! So his obsession with Juno never struck me as creepy in that sense.

Also there's some other stuff that suggests to me he wasn't a clone anyway, like the databank entry for the aberrant clones has the scientist bemoaning the fact that they weren't permitted to examine the original person they were cloning (which also seems to conflict with "Distant Thunder," suggesting its status as Infinities IMO). My whole reading was that Vader revived Starkiller again, as he did on the Empirical, used some sort of mindwipe/mind-rub/whatever on him, and tried to convince him he was a clone while his scientists worked to clone him as a contingency plan. He basically did to Starkiller what the Jedi Council did to Revan.

The whole game smacked of a "Matrix Reloaded' half the story with TFU3 answering what Starkiller was and how Juno survived.


Well keep in mind we did mention that it was well written in the fact that either way of looking at the clone issue was addressed.

But I still saw him dying the time he was jettisoned. To me Vader retrieved the body and started cloning. I think by making a clone of someone already dead is why his memories would cling to each clone- in TFU2 we see him struggle with his feelings and his thoughts. As for the Khommite Cloners- that was their process- he laid out a reasonable enough reason to do what they were doing. Which also makes Dorsk 81 and 82 more of an anomaly!


As for Lemlisk- this is something I feel needed addressed- when we know when Palpatine starts using Clones then we have an idea as to when things like his torture of Lemisk occurred. I mean in the end Lemlisk WAS dead. All the rest were clones with a phyc job being applied to then- pure torture Wink

And to me that's what Vader did- I think it would be cool to learn VADER perfected the Cloning process but couldn't for some reason benefit from it Wink

But We also know that Star Killer clones did exist- and if Distant Thunder does count- since it was before the Light Dark choice then we also know that THAT clone was the perfected one- which would make sense that SK of TFU2 was a CLOSE version. But it all gets back to how one CHOSE to read it going in. I think you go in looking at the whole story as I did- thinking he's been a clone since TFU1 then it all looks as though it supports this- but if like you- read it thinking it's the real him- you'll find that works too.

I think the big turn off for me was that it wasn't spelt out 100%.

I think Kota was like Obi-wan - Vader Killed your father- giving truth from a certain point of veiw Wink

Cause as with Lemlisk- it doesn't matter if one's a clone or not if one THINKS they are the original Wink
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 PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:08 pm Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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Taral-DLOS wrote:
Hey guys,

Love the podcast!

May I ask if there's going to be a new EU Cast this week? Since it's a weekly release I thought one would be out by now. If not, is there a schedule?



What OMB (Austin) said!

Yeah I literally got the schedule last minute.

Killed a lot of Podcast schedules this week ;(

We've even been getting more requests too for Character Corners and more of our EU and TCW segments.

So with all the news over the last 2 weeks and everything planned we're going to have so much to discuss that it won't even all be able to fit in one episode!

And Welcome to the EUChatter Taral-DLOS! Always good to have a new listener as well as a new addition to our forums!

I look forward to getting to know your Star Wars likes and dislikes!
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-To become a Jedi, it is not the Force one must learn to control but oneself.
-
-Podcasts: Star Wars Beyond the Films, The Star Wars Report, & EUCast


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 PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:12 pm Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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LivingJediDream wrote:


Also there's some other stuff that suggests to me he wasn't a clone anyway, like the databank entry for the aberrant clones has the scientist bemoaning the fact that they weren't permitted to examine the original person they were cloning (which also seems to conflict with "Distant Thunder," suggesting its status as Infinities IMO). My whole reading was that Vader revived Starkiller again, as he did on the Empirical, used some sort of mindwipe/mind-rub/whatever on him, and tried to convince him he was a clone while his scientists worked to clone him as a contingency plan. He basically did to Starkiller what the Jedi Council did to Revan.



See I think this makes sense- Vader would want to keep things to his chest plates. Galen's dead- cloning from a DEAD sample is NEVER good. So I could see Vader just providing a flash learning program of Galen's memories while the body was fresh. But not letting the cloners see the body to add confusion as to weather or not there is a main sample for the clones.
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 PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:41 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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I'm posting from my phone so I'll elaborate later, but I like the theory proposed by Ulicus at TFN: that the Kashyyyk level as Vader took place months before the game, and that the Starkiller in the game was an accelerated growth clone. I think the memories in the TFU2 novel preclude that unless they were manufactured, though.


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 PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:21 pm Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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LivingJediDream wrote:
I'm posting from my phone so I'll elaborate later, but I like the theory proposed by Ulicus at TFN: that the Kashyyyk level as Vader took place months before the game, and that the Starkiller in the game was an accelerated growth clone. I think the memories in the TFU2 novel preclude that unless they were manufactured, though.



Hmm look forward to your elaboration!

Though TFU2 we learn more about his Jedi Parents- I felt that the TFU 1 scene with Vader could have fit into Dark Lord easy enough. Or anytime around then even.

But I've also pondered similar things- like Galen's a kid in a stasis chamber somewhere..... with all theses clones made out of his potential Wink
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 PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:45 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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I liked the idea that either Starkiller was a clone of the child, taken months before the first game; or that Vader simply goes through Starkillers like nothing and Subject 1138 is literally that number clone.

However, I think both possibilities have been nixed by TFU2. I thought the first one was especially interesting because it would create the possibility that little Galen Marek could grow up to be in his forties c. FOTJ. Or as I theorized at TFN, a Jedi you may have heard of named Jaden Korr (homeworld: Coruscant), although that is theoretically possible in the second scenario under the premise that he's a clone (hence constructing a lightsaber on his own). It would explain a lot.... especially with Crosscurrent.

As for the clone issue in TFU2, my interpretation that he was the original was based entirely upon the novel and the game and its light side ending. Kota goes to great lengths to convince Starkiller it's impossible he's a clone, all the other clones are aberrant and messed up, in spite of Vader allegedly destroying the failures, and Starkiller has already been revived from death once.

The idea that the Dark Apprentice is a perfect clone doesn't wash with me, because the protagonist is more like the original than the Dark Apprentice, so it seems to me that the protagonist is the perfect clone. In what way is he imperfect? Those at TFN that have argued with me about this claim that the Dark Apprentice is called a perfect clone because he turned to the dark side and/or didn't fall for Juno. I just took that as further evidence that he was Infinities only, along with "Distant Thunder." If the clone is less like the original, that makes him less a copy, and more imperfect.

My impression upon getting the dark side ending was that it retroactively altered the entire premise to the story, because if it didn't, then where is the Dark Apprentice in the light side ending? Those at TFN think he just didn't appear because he didn't have to do so. I honestly don't buy it. And I don't understand why Vader would go to the effort to recover the protagonist if he's just a failure, given he has a huge facility full of failures and is apparently pumping out clones constantly.

As for Lemelisk, I am guessing the first time he died was after Episode IV due to the destruction of the Death Star.

As for Vader cloning himself, I imagine he didn't do so for the same reason why it bit Palpatine in the butt. The clones, for what I am assuming is the same reason Kota and the Khommites and so forth were arguing against cloning Force sensitives, were inferior to the original body. Perhaps the Force, via the midi-chlorians, rejects the clone as being a duplicate, so since a Force sensitive has a higher count they feel the adverse effects more acutely (i.e. the midi-chlorians mess with the clone, so having a lot physically messes up the clone, but having an ordinary midi count is too low to affect them). Vader probably felt it was safer to stick with his more damaged body than to risk his clone body falling apart and having to continually switch, lest he come across the same situation Palpatine did of running out of clones due to losing his cylinders. Plus in Shadows of the Empire, Vader thought he would eventually be able to heal his own body.


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 PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:18 am Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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LivingJediDream wrote:
As for the clone issue in TFU2, my interpretation that he was the original was based entirely upon the novel and the game and its light side ending. Kota goes to great lengths to convince Starkiller it's impossible he's a clone, all the other clones are aberrant and messed up, in spite of Vader allegedly destroying the failures, and Starkiller has already been revived from death once.


See for me even the Light Side ending I could see him being a clone. We've seen it doesn't matter if a being is a clone or not if the clone believes they are the person then they are for all intents and purposes. Kota was a perfect liar- he tells the clone everything he needs to know to doubt what the clone knows to be true. Kota even later says it doesn't matter- cause he knows that even if Starkiller was a clone he THINKS he's Galen enough to do what Galen would have. Kota is so sneaky Wink

LivingJediDream wrote:
The idea that the Dark Apprentice is a perfect clone doesn't wash with me, because the protagonist is more like the original than the Dark Apprentice, so it seems to me that the protagonist is the perfect clone. In what way is he imperfect? Those at TFN that have argued with me about this claim that the Dark Apprentice is called a perfect clone because he turned to the dark side and/or didn't fall for Juno. I just took that as further evidence that he was Infinities only, along with "Distant Thunder." If the clone is less like the original, that makes him less a copy, and more imperfect.


Well we have to keep in mind that Vader was setting out on a project here- why create a huge cloning facility to train the real deal only? He sought out a perfectly manipulative clone- that is why the Dark Apprentice was considered perfect- I'm sure he too would have suffered madness- he was grown in the Presence of the Force at accelerated rates. The fact that Starkiller is more like the original Galen makes sense- he IS the perfect replica of Galen- As the Force willed it.

LivingJediDream wrote:
My impression upon getting the dark side ending was that it retroactively altered the entire premise to the story, because if it didn't, then where is the Dark Apprentice in the light side ending? Those at TFN think he just didn't appear because he didn't have to do so. I honestly don't buy it. And I don't understand why Vader would go to the effort to recover the protagonist if he's just a failure, given he has a huge facility full of failures and is apparently pumping out clones constantly.


Well the last thing Vader can afford if for Palpatine to discover that Galen's still alivein some form or fashion- it would bring his plans to an abrupt end- he needs to bring the rogue in- the thing is - why not kill him yourself when you had the chance Vader? Laziness.... Laughing As for the Dark Apprentice- when Starkiller chooses the light- the Dark Apprentice wouldn't have felt the "Danger sense" to come to his masters aide. I felt that the clone had already decided to not kill Vader, and when he did the Dark Clone bailed. Either to track Vader- or for his own freedom.

But the fact that the DLC has the Dark Apprentice from TFU USE one has little choice but to ponder the Dark Apprentices' infinite status


LivingJediDream wrote:
As for Vader cloning himself, I imagine he didn't do so for the same reason why it bit Palpatine in the butt. The clones, for what I am assuming is the same reason Kota and the Khommites and so forth were arguing against cloning Force sensitives, were inferior to the original body. Perhaps the Force, via the midi-chlorians, rejects the clone as being a duplicate, so since a Force sensitive has a higher count they feel the adverse effects more acutely (i.e. the midi-chlorians mess with the clone, so having a lot physically messes up the clone, but having an ordinary midi count is too low to affect them). Vader probably felt it was safer to stick with his more damaged body than to risk his clone body falling apart and having to continually switch, lest he come across the same situation Palpatine did of running out of clones due to losing his cylinders. Plus in Shadows of the Empire, Vader thought he would eventually be able to heal his own body.



I like to think Vader figures it out- but only too late- Palpatine discovers he did and takes the process. (See I can ponder this for days they need to put me down and just write the tale already Laughing )
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 PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:28 am Reply with quote  
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  Mara Jade Skywalker
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LivingJediDream wrote:
I liked the idea that either Starkiller was a clone of the child, taken months before the first game; or that Vader simply goes through Starkillers like nothing and Subject 1138 is literally that number clone.

However, I think both possibilities have been nixed by TFU2. I thought the first one was especially interesting because it would create the possibility that little Galen Marek could grow up to be in his forties c. FOTJ. Or as I theorized at TFN, a Jedi you may have heard of named Jaden Korr (homeworld: Coruscant), although that is theoretically possible in the second scenario under the premise that he's a clone (hence constructing a lightsaber on his own). It would explain a lot.... especially with Crosscurrent.

As for the clone issue in TFU2, my interpretation that he was the original was based entirely upon the novel and the game and its light side ending. Kota goes to great lengths to convince Starkiller it's impossible he's a clone, all the other clones are aberrant and messed up, in spite of Vader allegedly destroying the failures, and Starkiller has already been revived from death once.

The idea that the Dark Apprentice is a perfect clone doesn't wash with me, because the protagonist is more like the original than the Dark Apprentice, so it seems to me that the protagonist is the perfect clone. In what way is he imperfect? Those at TFN that have argued with me about this claim that the Dark Apprentice is called a perfect clone because he turned to the dark side and/or didn't fall for Juno. I just took that as further evidence that he was Infinities only, along with "Distant Thunder." If the clone is less like the original, that makes him less a copy, and more imperfect.

My impression upon getting the dark side ending was that it retroactively altered the entire premise to the story, because if it didn't, then where is the Dark Apprentice in the light side ending? Those at TFN think he just didn't appear because he didn't have to do so. I honestly don't buy it. And I don't understand why Vader would go to the effort to recover the protagonist if he's just a failure, given he has a huge facility full of failures and is apparently pumping out clones constantly.

As for Lemelisk, I am guessing the first time he died was after Episode IV due to the destruction of the Death Star.

As for Vader cloning himself, I imagine he didn't do so for the same reason why it bit Palpatine in the butt. The clones, for what I am assuming is the same reason Kota and the Khommites and so forth were arguing against cloning Force sensitives, were inferior to the original body. Perhaps the Force, via the midi-chlorians, rejects the clone as being a duplicate, so since a Force sensitive has a higher count they feel the adverse effects more acutely (i.e. the midi-chlorians mess with the clone, so having a lot physically messes up the clone, but having an ordinary midi count is too low to affect them). Vader probably felt it was safer to stick with his more damaged body than to risk his clone body falling apart and having to continually switch, lest he come across the same situation Palpatine did of running out of clones due to losing his cylinders. Plus in Shadows of the Empire, Vader thought he would eventually be able to heal his own body.


This is brilliantly written. I agree with almost everything you said, and finally someone was able to spell out the thoughts that were all jumbled up inside my head. I am, however, ridiculously tired, and do not care to expound at this moment. I shall do so at a later date. Smile
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 PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:09 am Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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Mara Jade Skywalker wrote:
This is brilliantly written. I agree with almost everything you said, and finally someone was able to spell out the thoughts that were all jumbled up inside my head. I am, however, ridiculously tired, and do not care to expound at this moment. I shall do so at a later date. Smile


Thanks. I'm interested in seeing what you have to say about it.

I'm looking at the graphic novel now, and I find this exchange to be interesting:

BOBA FETT: He's a clone? A clone tore through this wall? Brought down a city on Cato Neimodia? Fought that monster?

(Panel of Vader, no dialogue, i.e. a pause)

VADER: He's a failed experiment.

In my mind, further evidence that Vader mindwiped Starkiller when his attempts to clone him proved unfruitful, and attempted to convince him that he was a clone.

Edit: Ha, and the very next scene is Fett talking to a technician about how the rapid growth of the clones is experimental and they inevitably go insane.


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