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 PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:43 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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Oh, don't worry about it. It's quite endearing!
Besides, that's why there's these forums, so you can write down your random thought processes!
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I am a Star Wars fan. That doesn't mean that I hate or love Jar Jar. That doesn't mean I hate or love Lucas, or agree or disagree 100% with him. That doesn't mean I prefer the PT over the OT, or vice versa. That doesn't mean I hate the EU, or even love all of it (or even read all of it). These are not prerequisites. Being a man is not a prerequisite. Being a geek is not a prerequisite. The only prerequisite is that I love something about Star Wars. I am a Star Wars fan.


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 PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:11 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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*Bounces up and down excitedly* It's back! It's back!

Just listening to it now, guys. But I wanted to pop by quickly to help you out, IR2, as you sound to be concerned with pronunciation. It is 'day-looge', and I've also heard it called 'Jay-haan' - for Jahan Cross. Though, of course, pronunciation is normally up to the individual, unless a name is particularly difficult, and needs clarification from those in the know.

Now back to the show!
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I am a Star Wars fan. That doesn't mean that I hate or love Jar Jar. That doesn't mean I hate or love Lucas, or agree or disagree 100% with him. That doesn't mean I prefer the PT over the OT, or vice versa. That doesn't mean I hate the EU, or even love all of it (or even read all of it). These are not prerequisites. Being a man is not a prerequisite. Being a geek is not a prerequisite. The only prerequisite is that I love something about Star Wars. I am a Star Wars fan.


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 PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 2:42 am Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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Life Is The Path wrote:
*Bounces up and down excitedly* It's back! It's back!

Just listening to it now, guys. But I wanted to pop by quickly to help you out, IR2, as you sound to be concerned with pronunciation. It is 'day-looge', and I've also heard it called 'Jay-haan' - for Jahan Cross. Though, of course, pronunciation is normally up to the individual, unless a name is particularly difficult, and needs clarification from those in the know.

Now back to the show!


Yeah we've had a Pronounciation episode planned for months now but it always keeps getting bumped back- all these new characters to add to the list Laughing

But even if I know the right way to say it- I can't always control my tongue.....

Like Corran Horn- I know it's said Core-run; but I just can't NOT call him Core-Ran. Just one of those things I started calling him and it's hosed me ever since- Vergere is another one.

I think mispronounced names should be on my "EUC Drinking game" as well!

"But um" - 1
"Ya know?"- 2
Mis pronounced - 3
I know there are so much more! lol
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 PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 4:27 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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Aye, I know what you mean. My tongue can't keep up with my brain, and often weird misshapen monsters of words come out instead! You know, I had been pronouncing Celchu 'Kel-choo' right up to the point in (I think) Wedge's Gamble, in the museum when Corran references 'Sel'.

Enjoyed the episode, guys! Sadly, though, I decided not to listen to the Deceived discussion, preferring to not have the story spoiled to me. I started listening to a little bit but I was upset even to learn that
Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)
. Not upset by the fact, just that it was a minor spoiler.

Now, I do wonder about one thing. The new agent of the empire comics. You said it's to be like Bourne and Bond. Well, which one? Bourne is more action oriented, he solves problems by going out and taking action. Bond, however, is a more suave creature, preferring to sweet talk his way out of tight spots first. Which one is it? I wouldn't mind either way, it's just something I was confused on.
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I am a Star Wars fan. That doesn't mean that I hate or love Jar Jar. That doesn't mean I hate or love Lucas, or agree or disagree 100% with him. That doesn't mean I prefer the PT over the OT, or vice versa. That doesn't mean I hate the EU, or even love all of it (or even read all of it). These are not prerequisites. Being a man is not a prerequisite. Being a geek is not a prerequisite. The only prerequisite is that I love something about Star Wars. I am a Star Wars fan.


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 PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 4:55 am Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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Life Is The Path wrote:
Aye, I know what you mean. My tongue can't keep up with my brain, and often weird misshapen monsters of words come out instead! You know, I had been pronouncing Celchu 'Kel-choo' right up to the point in (I think) Wedge's Gamble, in the museum when Corran references 'Sel'.

Enjoyed the episode, guys! Sadly, though, I decided not to listen to the Deceived discussion, preferring to not have the story spoiled to me. I started listening to a little bit but I was upset even to learn that
Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)
. Not upset by the fact, just that it was a minor spoiler.

Now, I do wonder about one thing. The new agent of the empire comics. You said it's to be like Bourne and Bond. Well, which one? Bourne is more action oriented, he solves problems by going out and taking action. Bond, however, is a more suave creature, preferring to sweet talk his way out of tight spots first. Which one is it? I wouldn't mind either way, it's just something I was confused on.



On Bond and Borne: Ostrander himself states:
"James Bond meets Star Wars" is a shorthand way of describing the series but it will be more than that. Cross is not Bond but the stories will be influenced by Bond, as well as Secret Agent, Jason Bourne, and so on.

Now what he means by this is still open for speculation.

Oh That minor spoiler- that's been given to us from almost the beginning- kudos for keeping unspoiled on it for so long! (I've been thinking of recording a Spoiler Free mini segment for Deceived though (cause you will want to read the book before listening to the Segment Wink )
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 PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 4:56 am Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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Life Is The Path wrote:
Aye, I know what you mean. My tongue can't keep up with my brain, and often weird misshapen monsters of words come out instead! You know, I had been pronouncing Celchu 'Kel-choo' right up to the point in (I think) Wedge's Gamble, in the museum when Corran references 'Sel'.


I called him Tie-ko Kel-shoe. for the longest time.
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-To become a Jedi, it is not the Force one must learn to control but oneself.
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-Podcasts: Star Wars Beyond the Films, The Star Wars Report, & EUCast


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 PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:23 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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Wait, do I take that to mean it's Tie Cho?! Dag nabbit! I say Tie Ko!

That's interesting about Bourne/Bond, though. I've always thought of them as quite incompatible. Indeed, I feel the last two Bond films were not Bond at all, but Bourne. If I were to guess, I'd say that Cross has the single minded, almost ruthlessness, of Bourne, but prefers to talk his way into and out of things, like Bond. I don't know. Well, his confusing statement has certainly got me interested!
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I am a Star Wars fan. That doesn't mean that I hate or love Jar Jar. That doesn't mean I hate or love Lucas, or agree or disagree 100% with him. That doesn't mean I prefer the PT over the OT, or vice versa. That doesn't mean I hate the EU, or even love all of it (or even read all of it). These are not prerequisites. Being a man is not a prerequisite. Being a geek is not a prerequisite. The only prerequisite is that I love something about Star Wars. I am a Star Wars fan.


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 PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 2:48 pm Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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Life Is The Path wrote:
Wait, do I take that to mean it's Tie Cho?! Dag nabbit! I say Tie Ko!

No, the first name I say right- it is Tie-Ko but it would always mess me up for getting his last name right. I always want to start that C sounding K and not S. I have such a hard time saying Sell Chew Laughing It's either Kel-Shoe or Kel-Chew and I could never say it the same way twice it would seem. It's like saing Thrawns full name or any S'iruuk's name lol


Life Is The Path wrote:

That's interesting about Bourne/Bond, though. I've always thought of them as quite incompatible. Indeed, I feel the last two Bond films were not Bond at all, but Bourne. If I were to guess, I'd say that Cross has the single minded, almost ruthlessness, of Bourne, but prefers to talk his way into and out of things, like Bond. I don't know. Well, his confusing statement has certainly got me interested!



Last two Bond films were "set at his beginning" so he's a more rough Bond then we're used too. I'm curious as to how they play it. I thought the Imperial side of things would be how the double Oh agency ran Bond, but that Cross himself would be more Borne vs the system in the regards of him seeing the Rebellion or what ever as his system to fight. (I'm curious if this will be a classic "awaken to the evils of the Empire" story?
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 PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:08 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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Aaah. Ooooh. I never thought of it like that! I was thinking in purely characterization terms, not story wise! I could see the Imperials being Bond-esque, and maybe then he turns into Bourne, more of a guerilleros, if he sides with the Rebels.

Quote:
It's like saing Thrawns full name or any S'iruuk's name lol


Rogue....You know I have a slightly cruel side, right? Well, I dare you to slip in Thrawn's full name in the next EUC episode! Very Happy
_________________
I am a Star Wars fan. That doesn't mean that I hate or love Jar Jar. That doesn't mean I hate or love Lucas, or agree or disagree 100% with him. That doesn't mean I prefer the PT over the OT, or vice versa. That doesn't mean I hate the EU, or even love all of it (or even read all of it). These are not prerequisites. Being a man is not a prerequisite. Being a geek is not a prerequisite. The only prerequisite is that I love something about Star Wars. I am a Star Wars fan.


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 PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:10 am Reply with quote  
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  Mara Jade Skywalker
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Mara Jade Skywalker wrote:
This is brilliantly written. I agree with almost everything you said, and finally someone was able to spell out the thoughts that were all jumbled up inside my head. I am, however, ridiculously tired, and do not care to expound at this moment. I shall do so at a later date. Smile


Alright, time to address this, like two months after I said it. Wink

LivingJediDream wrote:
I liked the idea that either Starkiller was a clone of the child, taken months before the first game; or that Vader simply goes through Starkillers like nothing and Subject 1138 is literally that number clone.

However, I think both possibilities have been nixed by TFU2. I thought the first one was especially interesting because it would create the possibility that little Galen Marek could grow up to be in his forties c. FOTJ. Or as I theorized at TFN, a Jedi you may have heard of named Jaden Korr (homeworld: Coruscant), although that is theoretically possible in the second scenario under the premise that he's a clone (hence constructing a lightsaber on his own). It would explain a lot.... especially with Crosscurrent.


This. This right here is what stopped me in my tracks. I love it! Is it crazy? Yes. But the idea that Jaden Korr, a favorite character of mine, could be Galen Marek, also a favorite character of mine, just blew my mind. It never even occurred to me until you said it. And I'm loving it. Smile

The likelihood of this is extremely low, but I'm loving the implications. As you said, it would explain a lot, especially with Crosscurrent. If Paul S. Kemp comes out with Riptide and ties Jaden Korr back to Galen Marek with the whole clone angle, I will officially be the happiest and most shell-shocked Star Wars fan on the planet. Very Happy

LivingJediDream wrote:
As for the clone issue in TFU2, my interpretation that he was the original was based entirely upon the novel and the game and its light side ending. Kota goes to great lengths to convince Starkiller it's impossible he's a clone, all the other clones are aberrant and messed up, in spite of Vader allegedly destroying the failures, and Starkiller has already been revived from death once.


Agreed, I was under the impression he was the original, mainly based upon the fact that he's not crazy. However, is Vader lying in saying that all the other clones are failures? Does he go through them like nothing and this is indeed Clone 1138? I could see it. But I'd much rather see that he's the original Starkiller. How did he survive? I don't know, but who's to say he was ever actually dead?

LivingJediDream wrote:
The idea that the Dark Apprentice is a perfect clone doesn't wash with me, because the protagonist is more like the original than the Dark Apprentice, so it seems to me that the protagonist is the perfect clone. In what way is he imperfect? Those at TFN that have argued with me about this claim that the Dark Apprentice is called a perfect clone because he turned to the dark side and/or didn't fall for Juno. I just took that as further evidence that he was Infinities only, along with "Distant Thunder." If the clone is less like the original, that makes him less a copy, and more imperfect.


This is exactly what I was thinking. First off, I don't think there's any such thing as a perfect clone. However, if we're going to go with the fact that Starkiller is indeed a clone, then I would certainly think that the one that behaved most like him would be considered more perfect. The fact that the Dark Apprentice was as different as he was tells me that he's an altered specimen. However, perhaps this is what Vader wanted. Consider this: Vader experimented with the original Starkiller, but came to find that he didn't have enough control over an actual human being. Like the Clones in the Clone Wars, he needed not only someone he could manipulate from birth, but someone he could manipulate genetically to do his bidding. There are two possibilities I see with this line of thought:

1. Starkiller is the real dude, and Vader's giving him another chance. Because like it or not, the real deal is just better than a clone. But just in case, he has an altered clone waiting in the wings to step in if Starkiller messes up.

2. Starkiller is a clone, but an unaltered version. Like the above scenario, Vader keeps an altered version waiting just in case.

I think it's an interesting possibility, anyway. Considering that's what they did in the Clone Wars.

LivingJediDream wrote:
My impression upon getting the dark side ending was that it retroactively altered the entire premise to the story, because if it didn't, then where is the Dark Apprentice in the light side ending? Those at TFN think he just didn't appear because he didn't have to do so. I honestly don't buy it. And I don't understand why Vader would go to the effort to recover the protagonist if he's just a failure, given he has a huge facility full of failures and is apparently pumping out clones constantly.


Exactly. Which makes me think he's not a failure, and not a clone. Vader still knows that the original Starkiller is the best, despite his disobedient ways, and he wants him back. The Dark Side ending honestly makes no sense to me no matter how you look at it. I just don't like it.

LivingJediDream wrote:
As for Lemelisk, I am guessing the first time he died was after Episode IV due to the destruction of the Death Star.

As for Vader cloning himself, I imagine he didn't do so for the same reason why it bit Palpatine in the butt. The clones, for what I am assuming is the same reason Kota and the Khommites and so forth were arguing against cloning Force sensitives, were inferior to the original body. Perhaps the Force, via the midi-chlorians, rejects the clone as being a duplicate, so since a Force sensitive has a higher count they feel the adverse effects more acutely (i.e. the midi-chlorians mess with the clone, so having a lot physically messes up the clone, but having an ordinary midi count is too low to affect them). Vader probably felt it was safer to stick with his more damaged body than to risk his clone body falling apart and having to continually switch, lest he come across the same situation Palpatine did of running out of clones due to losing his cylinders. Plus in Shadows of the Empire, Vader thought he would eventually be able to heal his own body.


See, I find this quite intriguing. It makes for a very good argument why Vader would never clone himself. Or any Force-sensitive, for that matter. The fact that the Force would reject a clone is quite brilliant! I never would have thought of that. A non-Force-sensitive wouldn't have to worry about this, but it would affect all clones able to touch the Force. It would almost be like trying to use an authenticaton key on a product. When you connect to the internet, the key is immediately scanned to see if there is a duplicate. If so, the key is rejected. But without an internet connection, this would never be a problem, because there would be no way for the key to be verified. In the same way, the clones with Force-sensitivity run into the problem of the Force itself going, "Wait, what's this? We already have a being with this particular make-up. There can't be two." And repercussions ensue.

So, indeed, I find all of your ponderings quite intriguing. I'd like to expound on it more at a later date, but for now I must grab some sleep. Smile
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 PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:13 am Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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Yeah, I came up with the Jaden Korr idea on TFN back when it was widely believed you were a Starkiller clone in TFU2, and that Starkiller was even a clone starting with the Empirical in TFU1, as a way for Starkiller to be involved with post-film EU.

But now it's pretty clear that Starkiller wasn't a clone in the first game at all, because of the issues Vader was having with clones. In fact, I would think it would be verifiable that Starkiller in TFU2 is the original based upon whether he has any synthetic parts from his stay on the Empirical.

I don't think Jaden Korr is going to be Starkiller, I think I gave up hope with the two Riptide covers.

Assuming Starkiller survives TFU3 -- I think it would be extraordinarily stupid to bring him back from death in 2, only to kill him again in 3 -- I think it would be interesting to see a novel like Shadows of Mindor in which Starkiller meets Luke and they team up set sometime either between 5-8 ABY or 10-18 ABY.

There is a growing desire, at TFN at least, to see a novelized version of Dark Empire. If Starkiller was inserted into this, I would be stoked. Sure, it would be revising the story substantially, but it fits the story in the sense that Luke gathers a contingent of Jedi throughout Dark Empire to Empire's End, and there's a precedent for a novelization of a comic event to do this level of revision (Path of Destruction). And I always felt that Dark Empire and The Force Unleashed were very similar: their depiction of the Force is similar, they both deal with the dark side of the Force intimately, and both heavily focus on Palpatine and Vader.

In fact, I think that's like my biggest thing I want to see, besides the Plagueis novel. Dark Empire, Dark Empire II, and Empire's End revised in a novel format, with prequel tie-ins and moar Starkiller.

Edit: Not to mention that the Tales of the Jedi comics have been massively revised in terms of the general mores of the Jedi order at the time of the Great Sith War, as well as the composition and history of the Sith Empire being completely rewritten multiple times by fixing the date of the Dark Jedi conquest of the Sith people from the First Great Schism to the Second Great Schism, the introduction of the exiled Tapani house into the Sith Empire to allow for humans to outnumber the Sith species, and the existence of lightsabers in the Sith Empire.

I could see Starkiller being Captain Marvel to Luke's Superman. He's there when you need a Luke surrogate but Luke isn't available.


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 PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:13 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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LivingJediDream wrote:
Yeah, I came up with the Jaden Korr idea on TFN back when it was widely believed you were a Starkiller clone in TFU2, and that Starkiller was even a clone starting with the Empirical in TFU1, as a way for Starkiller to be involved with post-film EU.

But now it's pretty clear that Starkiller wasn't a clone in the first game at all, because of the issues Vader was having with clones. In fact, I would think it would be verifiable that Starkiller in TFU2 is the original based upon whether he has any synthetic parts from his stay on the Empirical.

I don't think Jaden Korr is going to be Starkiller, I think I gave up hope with the two Riptide covers.

Assuming Starkiller survives TFU3 -- I think it would be extraordinarily stupid to bring him back from death in 2, only to kill him again in 3 -- I think it would be interesting to see a novel like Shadows of Mindor in which Starkiller meets Luke and they team up set sometime either between 5-8 ABY or 10-18 ABY.

There is a growing desire, at TFN at least, to see a novelized version of Dark Empire. If Starkiller was inserted into this, I would be stoked. Sure, it would be revising the story substantially, but it fits the story in the sense that Luke gathers a contingent of Jedi throughout Dark Empire to Empire's End, and there's a precedent for a novelization of a comic event to do this level of revision (Path of Destruction). And I always felt that Dark Empire and The Force Unleashed were very similar: their depiction of the Force is similar, they both deal with the dark side of the Force intimately, and both heavily focus on Palpatine and Vader.

In fact, I think that's like my biggest thing I want to see, besides the Plagueis novel. Dark Empire, Dark Empire II, and Empire's End revised in a novel format, with prequel tie-ins and moar Starkiller.

Edit: Not to mention that the Tales of the Jedi comics have been massively revised in terms of the general mores of the Jedi order at the time of the Great Sith War, as well as the composition and history of the Sith Empire being completely rewritten multiple times by fixing the date of the Dark Jedi conquest of the Sith people from the First Great Schism to the Second Great Schism, the introduction of the exiled Tapani house into the Sith Empire to allow for humans to outnumber the Sith species, and the existence of lightsabers in the Sith Empire.

I could see Starkiller being Captain Marvel to Luke's Superman. He's there when you need a Luke surrogate but Luke isn't available.



Actually, I have an idea that's sort of like that. It could be that Korr is Juno's and Galen's kid. As to the possibility of Starkiller being a clone in TFU 1, I think that's still a possibility. There's nothing to say that (let's assume that Starkiller post-Empirical is a clone) he's not the first one. It could be he's the first one they've tried to use in a practical sense, and so they wouldn't know that there's a problem with cloning him. It would also mean that they include some sort of memory transference - such a thing is even theoretically possible in the real world.

Back in the days when I didn't read comics, I, too, wanted a nozelization of DE. However, that's been undone by my falling to the Comic Side. It now seems less necessary, but it would still be a nice thing to see. However, I wouldn't like Galen to turn up in it.

And, to be honest, I don't really understand your last comment, as I don't read comics outside of SW, but I get the gist. I wouldn't want that. I'm a big fan Starkiller, so much that one guy called me Defender of the Starkiller (okay, he didn't call me that exactly - that would be the cleaned up version Wink ) I wouldn't like Starkiller to be a 'Captain Marvel', the surrogate. He's a cool guy on his own, and I feel he deserves to stand on his own two feet, be a hero in his own right, not be the stand in when the lead actor gets ill.
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 PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:31 pm Reply with quote  
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I think this whole cloning monkey business that took place with numerous failures after TFU1 precludes Starkiller from being a clone in TFU1. Especially if Distant Thunder is in continuity, which is what most people arguing that Starkiller is a clone in TFU2 use as proof, in that Vader has a whole bunch of "failures." It definitely strikes as a work in progress; plus Vader makes no qualms about the clones being clones, whereas he didn't do this on the Empirical.

People thought Starkiller was a clone in TFU1 under the premise that the cloning process was like that in the other EU, without any kinks, but TFU2 took it in another direction as something Vader was having difficulty with.


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 PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:35 pm Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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Life Is The Path wrote:
Aaah. Ooooh. I never thought of it like that! I was thinking in purely characterization terms, not story wise! I could see the Imperials being Bond-esque, and maybe then he turns into Bourne, more of a guerilleros, if he sides with the Rebels.

Quote:
It's like saing Thrawns full name or any S'iruuk's name lol


Rogue....You know I have a slightly cruel side, right? Well, I dare you to slip in Thrawn's full name in the next EUC episode! Very Happy


Challenge accepted! Wink I'll try to remember for #121 Wink
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 PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:15 pm Reply with quote  
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Another thing I just thought of, is if Starkiller was a clone starting aboard the Empirical in TFU1, it doesn't make sense that he's obsessed with Juno in TFU2. The original Starkiller would have died on the Executor, not having become obsessed with Juno yet, so it wouldn't make sense for Vader to make future clones based upon the first clone that trained with a Jedi and became attached to a woman, rather than the original that died loyal to Vader with no Jedi influence.


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