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Faith
 PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 8:48 pm Reply with quote  
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  Old Master Ben
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This is a final place for all faith and religious discussions. I would prefer if this wasn't about creation, evolution. We have other places to discuss that. But all other faith discussions are open.


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 PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:53 pm Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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Sorry, its a bit long kurtdc, but I wanted to respond to all of your points

Quote:

My personal belief is to live life as a fairly honest person. Treat people with respect, love and take care of your family and all should be good. And IF there is some magical utopia out there and we live that way, we should end up there anyways.


This honestly makes no sense to me. Why would being a fairly good person get you into a magical utopia? In order for that to make sense, there would need to be an all-powerful being who represent justice, and goodness, and love. If such a being does not exist, why would being good even matter? How would that get you anywhere?

And furthermore, being "fairly" good doesnít cut it. Thatís like going to someone and telling them, "I know you lie to me and say nasty things behind my back only 40% of the time. The majority of the time youíre not so bad, I really appreciate that! Thanks a lot friend." And then we expect to do this to God and somehow he lets us into everlasting paradise!? No, it doesnít make any sense at all.

That is why Jesus died for us. He is a perfect being and we imperfect beings cannot make it into heaven on our own. Light and darkness donít coexist. So he lets us choose his gift of everlasting life and forgiveness for free. He doesnít ask us for anything but that we love and trust him. THAT is the message of the bible.

kurtdc wrote:
I personally think the book is primarily fables designed to give you a code to live life and/or a fear of god so that you live the right way, mixed with a little bit of historical accuracy.


I will agree with you to a certain extent that not everything in the Bible is meant to be taken literally. There are times for example where the Bible says the casualties for a war were some specific number like 30,000 or whatever. Is this meant to be taken literally? Probably not, most likely just means a lot of people died. Also, books like Revelation use tons of symbolism and there are a ton of parables Jesus tells the disciples.

However, the Bible is pretty clear when differentiating between a parable and an actual event. For example, there is no reason to think that Moses parting the Red Sea is a parable, or the ten plagues, or the feeding of the thousands with a few loaves of bread and some fish. The Bible clearly treats these as actual factual events. Whether you choose to believe it happened or not is a different story.

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Another of my problems with the 100% true part is this: most of these stories were passed on my word of mouth for hundreds of years. Seriously, over a weekend a story can get blown out of proportion. Let alone over years.


An interesting point. However historians have found many texts such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, and stuff even earlier that match today's interpretations super closely, with little or no discrepancy. Itís been basically thousands of years and yet the stories remain the same. I find that pretty remarkable given the history of the Bible and its translations.

This reminds me of the Shakespeare controversy. Even with all the uncertainty and lack of original texts, people would more easily believe that Shakespeare wrote all of his plays and was a real person over believing that Jesus was a real person and the Bible's writings have withstood the test of time. Kind of amazing really.

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I don't mean to offend, this is just my viewpoint.


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Last edited by Autobon on Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:54 pm; edited 1 time in total


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 PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:03 pm Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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Quote:

An interesting point. However historians have found many texts such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, and stuff even earlier that match today's interpretations super closely, with little or no discrepancy. Itís been basically thousands of years and yet the stories remain the same. I find that pretty remarkable given the history of the Bible and its translations.


This makes sense to me- since when you think about it- all the apostles and prophets and all that like got together and decided which scrolls to keep in the bible.

Note: the Dead Sea scrolls were not included, yet almost tell the same story.

It gets back to politics- why then if the story is so close drop it. The only hing I can think of is that it also addressed things they did NOT want to discuss- things like Mary Magnaline and her relationship to Jesus.

Basically the Bible is the churches constitution and bill of rights, and the men responsible made sure the story stayed the way they wanted it, and dropped from it anything that might contradict the story they want told.

Just my random thoughts on it.
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 PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:42 pm Reply with quote  
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  kurtdc
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Oh boy, this is why I usually stay out of this stuff(even in my own home). OK, here goes:

This honestly makes no sense to me. Why would being a fairly good person get you into a magical utopia? In order for that to make sense, there would need to be an all-powerful being who represent justice, and goodness, and love. If such a being does not exist, why would being good even matter? How would that get you anywhere?

And furthermore, being "fairly" good doesnít cut it. Thatís like going to someone and telling them, "I know you lie to me and say nasty things behind my back only 40% of the time. The majority of the time youíre not so bad, I really appreciate that! Thanks a lot friend." And then we expect to do this to God and somehow he lets us into everlasting paradise!? No, it doesnít make any sense at all.


OK, my point in saying "fairly" was this. All of us have bad days, good days....... We are not all going to be perfect all the time. "Fairly" good to me means: I am not a murderer, I am not a rapist, I do not abuse children, I do not bully people verbally or physically, etc. Do I swear? Yes. As a child did I steal a pack of crayons? Yes. Do I get road rage? Oh yah. I'm talking about the big categories when I mean "fairly good".

Why would being a fairly good person get you there? My point is that if you live life the way you are supposed to, according to the law of god, the law of man, or just plain common decency, then if a heaven exists you should be welcomed, even if you weren't a "true beleiver" you're whole life.

And on the flipside, I find it ludicrous that a murderer or pedophile supposedly can still get in heaven if they are "truly sorry and ask forgiveness". Are you kidding me? A good person who lived a good life doesn't get in because he didn't have blind faith, but a kiddie diddler can get in if he says sorry. Call me crazy, but that's not right.

But yes, obviously if there is a heaven, there is a god. My overall point is that you should live a certain way whether you go to heaven or if you just end up as worm food.

I hope this clarifies my idea. It's not about being "40% nice". It's not about a percentage. I think it's more common sense than that, and if there is a god, I would assume he has an abundance of common sense.


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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:48 am Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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For this you really have to go back to the beginning. God intended us to live in paradise from day one, He made the Garden of Eden and let Adam and Eve live in it. While they were in there I can only imagine, what good live they would've had. At the time there was no sin in the world, but God gave us free will (so as not to be slave robots, I'm sure we can all appreciate that). There was also no death. Because there was no sin, Adam and Eve could live in God's presence. As you probably know the devil tempted Eve into taking the apple and sin entered the world. God is a perfect being and nothing imperfect can reside with him. So it doesn't matter if you steal a gumball or commit triple homocide, if you're not perfect (which we're all a far cry from if you think about it long enough) you can't be with God. Simple as that. So at the time no person could ever enter Heaven, because once sin was introduced, none of us can resist. That's where Jesus came in. Jesus took on the life of a human and lived a perfect life, when He died he payed the penalties for our sins, not His. So, if we accept, we can got to Heaven when we die, because our sins are, potentially, covered.
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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:26 pm Reply with quote  
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  kurtdc
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Hey, stand by your beleifs. I don't try to sway anyone from what they beleive. I very well could be completely wrong. My best friend is very religous. I married into a greek orthodox family(they are more strict than catholics for cryin out loud).

In fact, for the most part, I teach my kids the stuff I grew up learning(12 years of catholic school). On my own I decided I didn't beleive it(theory of evolution guy), but I opt to educate my kids in religion. They have no idea I am a "non-beleiver". That way, as they get older they can follow the faith if they so choose, I don't want to negatively influence that.

I totally understand all the stuff you wrote in the last post. I just don't beleive in it.


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 PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:26 am Reply with quote  
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  Anakinlover89
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Religious discussions they are so much fun to get into. My faith is I'm Christian however I don't follow a lot of the beliefs associated with it. I believe that God is a merciful God and if you are a fairly good person in Life you are going to go to Heaven. I also believe that God does not look down on sins such as sex before marriage, I believe God gave us the gift of sex so why restrict it to marriage only. I don't believe in organized religion, such as I am against churches and the fellowships, in my past experiences I have seen hypocrisy in the church and God despises that so I think he is no longer aligned with churches. However these are just my personal beliefs and don't mean to offend anyone.
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 PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:28 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Anakinlover89 wrote:
I also believe that God does not look down on sins such as sex before marriage, I believe God gave us the gift of sex so why restrict it to marriage only. .

I'll assume you won't mind if I discuss this, seeing this is a discussion forum. I disagree with this. I believe, as can by seen in the Bible, that God intended sex to be shared between two people and no one else. You shouldn't have a casual attitude about it, if you're not ready for commitment, don't sleep with anyone. If you're a Christian.
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To find all you seek,
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 PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 5:13 pm Reply with quote  
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  Queen PadmŤ Skywalker
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@Anakinlover: can I ask what your views on the Bible are? Do you believe in its authenticity or no? Just wondering. Smile
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 PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:36 pm Reply with quote  
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  Anakinlover89
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Quote:
I'll assume you won't mind if I discuss this, seeing this is a discussion forum. I disagree with this. I believe, as can by seen in the Bible, that God intended sex to be shared between two people and no one else. You shouldn't have a casual attitude about it, if you're not ready for commitment, don't sleep with anyone. If you're a Christian.


I didn't say have sex casually I'm against one night stands and the whole friends with benefits relationships but if you love someone and your not married I don't see anything wrong with you having sex with that person. I believe God wouldn't look down on it either especially if you love that person.

Quote:
@Anakinlover: can I ask what your views on the Bible are? Do you believe in its authenticity or no? Just wondering.


I believe that the only authentic teachings is that of the Gospel, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The Old Testament is basically the old Jewish faith and their history and Paul's letters are only his own personal views.
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 PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:37 pm Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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Ah but even the gospels contain different information in some places. They are simply 4 different people's viewpoints on the same story. The Old Testament may be Jewish law but outside of that there are still decent lessons in it. I agree with your opinion of Paul's letters and that they are opinion, but the Revelations and other New Testament books aren't of Paul and I have to state that it dictates that either the entirety of the bible must be believed in or none of it. Its all human interpretation of God's messages, and therefore some of it might be flawed but we need to take it on general principal instead of word for word. In the gospels Jesus condemns those who took the Old Testament literally and promotes the opinion that they are not meant that way but still that they are good stories to live by. The bible is merely a collection of histories and parables that are meant to be guidelines. We aren't meant to take every little thing literally or out of context, but rather take the lessons from it. Some things are fairly specific. I say all this knowing I don't follow it all myself and knowing that my personal interaction with god isn't perfect, but its what i see. There were several possible additions to the Bible, but the council of Trent deemed these fit. I believe that the Bible could've been longer, and that I would be fine with it being a lot shorter in places. But nonetheless, this is what we got and its ALL human interpretation so if we are willing to accept some above others then we've started trusting certain interpretation more than others. Personally growing up I didn't like Paul because he had all the rules I didn't enjoy following so because of that I chose to only believe the parts that condoned what I wanted, or at least didn't condemn it. Its a matter of choice but I say take it as a whole or you're cheating yourself. Just my opinion Smile
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 PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:47 am Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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Here's my viewpoint on premarital sex, back in the day, the idea was that by having such a religious law would prevent children from having to be born into a world were they would have no father, and also to prevent women from having to raise children without any support. By having such a law, it helped ensure that the parents would be there for the kids, and for each other.

Now it is my opinion that the religious laws like that are open to a little wiggle room because the real lesson is a deeper truth. Marriage in itself is just a contract between two people. If you lived on a island and there was just you and one other person then how would you get married? Do you really think God would hold it against you because you didn't get married?

And now days marriage itself can really be split into two parts: 1 - the ceremony, and 2-the legal documents making it official under law.

Now I'm not going to say I condone or stand against premarital sex because it really depends on the situation. In the Old Testament it actually says that premarital sex is okay as long as you marry the person and pay their father a dowry. So it's obvious that premarital sex in itself is not some unbreakable law that will send you to hell, but a murkier situation that you need to consider and make responsible decisions about.
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 PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:09 am Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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I've always been a little undecided about the specifics of marriage. The idea is you share intimacy with one person or you're celibate. Does that mean you need a preist reading vows, it has to in church, you need to be showered with rice? I'm not sure.
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To find all you seek,
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 PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:33 pm Reply with quote  
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  Anakinlover89
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Exactly I believe that the Bible is a book of guidelines not a specific book about you can't do this and you can't do that. God I believe is a very understanding God and I don't think he expects us to be these perfect people who are celibate until marriage or that certain lifestyle choices are prohibited. That's just my opinion.
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 PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:35 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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I didn't exactly mean that. I'm just not sure what the specifics of marriage are: do you merely need a personal commitment or the ceremony too? I think God can be forgiving, but I wouldn't call Him "understanding" in that way. We need to be sinless to live with God after our life on earth is spent. Jesus doesn't make us perfect, but He allowed us to be forgiven.
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Where sky and water meet,
Where the waves grow sweet,
Doubt not, Reepicheep,
To find all you seek,
There is the utter east.


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