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 PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:09 pm Reply with quote  
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  GrandMaster
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Mad Wook wrote:
I actually think that's an interesting idea for the Genndy show to be a holonet show in-universe. That puts a crazy spin on it.

And I am still completely baffled by people's negative opinion on personal canon. As long as people don't bring it into a discussion, who the hell cares or is affected by another's inner or personal canon. What is in someone's own head and imagination is absolutely no one else's business. Just as long as they don't bring it into a discussion. Just don't get this....


My personal problem with personal canon is that the use of the word "canon" is used completely inaccurately. Canon describes what is officially recognized, so it can't be used to describe one person's individual preferences. And I have seen it get used in discussions, which really doesn't help anyone.
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 PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:15 pm Reply with quote  
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  Ultimatedash
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I gotta agree, if that show has been labeled an in-universe show, it's a pretty interesting take on it. Plus it would help fix a continuity problem, which everyone complains, so I don't see the down-side.


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 PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:26 pm Reply with quote  
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  Mad Wook
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So is "personal continuity" a better term? This is just a hobby. It's not like we're debating God's word.


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 PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:43 pm Reply with quote  
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  GrandMaster
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Yeah, "personal continuity" is better. It just helps to avoid confusion, especially since Star Wars has multiple levels of canon.
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“No. I am Ganner. This threshold is mine. I claim it for my own. Bring on your thousands, one at a time or all in a rush. I don’t give a damn. None shall pass.”

“Eventually, we all betray something, Tahiri. It’s what you stay true to that counts.”

"Shaken, not stirred, will get you cold water with a dash of gin and dry vermouth. The reason you stir it with a special spoon is so not to chip the ice. James is ordering a weak martini and being snooty about it."


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 PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:16 pm Reply with quote  
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  Dog-Poop_Walker
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Going back to Personal Canon; the issue for me isn't that I care what people want to do, they can do whatever they want... it's just that the creation of PC is a sort of admittance that canon doesn't work. A good deal of us may indeed feel that it is broken, but to say that it's Ok because we have PC is to say that it doesn't matter if it's broken and there is no point in trying to fix it... which is to say that having continuity doesn't really even matter at all to begin with. It also divides the fan base because we are all living our own star wars fantasies instead of sharing one universe.

The issue I have with an in universe only CW is that it was canon and now it isn't. If it's subject to change whenever then what is the point of having canon at all? it's meaningless. You say retcon I say make it up as you go, which is not what I call continuity.

Continuity means continuation. Why is that hard to understand? that means that you make new stories that follow the ideas that were put down by the old ones, not to make new ideas that contradict the old ones and then change the old ones so that they fit with the new ones.
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 PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:11 pm Reply with quote  
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  DarthMRN
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Caedus_16 wrote:
DarthMRN wrote:
illogicalRogue2 wrote:
I love how the Genndy series falls under it and yet isn't considered at the same time.

I have heard you say this a couple of times, and I still don't get what you mean by it. Why would the Gennedy series be part of the Lucas pillar? The book clearly references TCW, even if it omits the The.


The Genndy series is now considered an in-universe TV show that people on Coruscant watched during the war. It used to just be...well, you know, canon.

Unless you know something I don't, this is an exaggerated position. Leland has said CW is C-canon. The old Paxi Sylo Databank entry only referenced Mace's battle on Dantooine, since that was the only thing the guy had witnessed. Combined, and considering the Holocron tracks by entry rather than source, the far more reasonable estimate is for only the Dantooine battle to be IU media, rather than the whole series.

...but I don't see what that has to do with CW being part of the Lucas pillar.

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Sort of. It only furthers their inconsistency. Apparently things can be canon when on film unless they decide otherwise, but that just means that whatever they decide is canon is canon so once again its all up in the air.

It's not about which medium it is on. It is about GL involvement. And yes, that means the people in charge of licensing and continuity gets to arbitrarily decide these things. That should be a no-brainer. Who else would decide it?

Quote:
It was at one time true. However due to all the retconning I don't know exactly how long it remained true or if it has been completely removed from canon. But when Labyrinth of Evil came out it was looked at as jumbled and when TCW started it became this in-universe thing only. Then there came overall 5 years of TCW thus far that may have just completely erased it as of right now. But yes, at one point it was indeed considered an in-universe show since they decided they wanted something else instead.

Per what I said earlier about the status quo of continuity, there is no compelling reason to think an abundance of retcons would de-canonize a certain product. Indeed, the very purpose of such a retcon would be to retain the product in question. If it was to be dropped arbitrarily from continuity, there would be no reason to slap a band-aid on. You could just replace it wholesale and never mention it again.

Taral-DLOS wrote:
I think the screenshot we saw chooses to not distinguish between the Genndy and Filoni series (plural). I think CW and TCW both count, both as what was formerly called "T-canon."

That would run contrary to twelve years of precedent, if so. And GL disowning CW as a "pilot series" that he reportedly found "over the top".

Also, formerly called T-canon? What is up with this thread? Has there been major developments in the organization of Holocron continuity while my back was turned, or are people just making stuff up?

Dog-Poop_Walker wrote:
Continuity means continuation. Why is that hard to understand? that means that you make new stories that follow the ideas that were put down by the old ones, not to make new ideas that contradict the old ones and then change the old ones so that they fit with the new ones.

On one hand: Hear hear!

On the other: This is a pretty unrealistic expectation to have for SW. There is simply too much continuity to keep track of, and too much cash that stands to be lost from delaying schedules and extending contracts just to fix works that don't measure up at the end. Not to mention the loss or artistic lisence the creator would suffer. With the further implication that a given creator should actually sacrifice quality storytelling on the altar of pristine continuity, which is really not a cost-effective solution.

I will say I was impressed with what I heard about this Mass Effect novel that got held back and fixed up, however. It would be cool if the Lucas Empire was willing to spend its vast fortune on something like that. Though, GL has apparently admitted ever since the 80's how SW was always intended as a cash cow for Skywalker Ranch, so what can we expect?
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 PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:47 am Reply with quote  
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  Dog-Poop_Walker
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DarthMRN wrote:
With the further implication that a given creator should actually sacrifice quality storytelling on the altar of pristine continuity, which is really not a cost-effective solution.


How so? The easiest way to keep continuity would just be to never mention anything that happened prior to a story, that way there would be no conflicting information. Although that would be true, it doesn't "feel" like continuity so instead what they tend to do is shoehorn in nods to past stories to play at continuity, but then don't actually take the time to make it fit together.

For instance the planet Dathomir in TCW is a desert, while it was a forest in the EU. It's not a big deal in terms of story but it shows how stupid the whole thing is because they just wanted to throw in an idea without actually trying to make it work when it now not only screws up the continuity, it was entirely unnecessary to begin with. They could have just used a new planet and not had to worry about synching up the different stories.
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 PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:00 am Reply with quote  
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  Taral-DLOS
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GrandMaster wrote:
Yeah, "personal continuity" is better. It just helps to avoid confusion, especially since Star Wars has multiple levels of canon.


I guess I agree too.

Especially since I suppose "homemade retcons" are a form of personal continuity. By this, I mean that I (and many others on the board, if memory serves), like to fix continuity issues with theoretical retcons. They're not canon (because they've never been stated), but they tie the events together and fix problems.

So I guess, for me, "Personal Continuity" means things get added, whereas "Personal Canon" implies things getting dropped or ignored.
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 PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:41 am Reply with quote  
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  DarthMRN
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Dog-Poop_Walker wrote:
The easiest way to keep continuity would just be to never mention anything that happened prior to a story, that way there would be no conflicting information. Although that would be true, it doesn't "feel" like continuity so instead what they tend to do is shoehorn in nods to past stories to play at continuity, but then don't actually take the time to make it fit together.

Only if you limit continuity to historical events referenced for the sake of reference.

Everything SW is continuity. Events, species, objects, locations, characters, phenomena etc. In a SW context, that word is not limited to its normal usage -especially not when I am involved. And in order to create a SW product, the creator needs to reference those. Use them. Not merely for the sake of referencing, but for the sake of storytelling. SW storytelling. And so long as he does, even if no events are referenced, even if nothing is referenced solely for the sake of reference, even if the product is skintight and bone-dry in its referencing of only things valid to the plot, it still has to reference established continuity. Of which there is too much for any but a few creators to keep track of.

Which in turn means more time spent researching and shoehorning established facts into the desired narrative, and less time spent creating quality. Not to mention that established facts might even get in the way of the creator's vision for a better narrative or more enjoyable experience. I remember Drew Karphyshyn justifying his changes from JvS thus, for example.
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 PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:00 pm Reply with quote  
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  Mad Wook
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So, I get credit for coining "Personal Continuity." Wink


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 PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:05 pm Reply with quote  
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  Dancelittleewok
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Mad Wook wrote:
So, I get credit for coining "Personal Continuity." Wink

The award ceremony will be on Saturday at 3 PM. Be there. Wink

DarthMRN wrote:
This is a pretty unrealistic expectation to have for SW. There is simply too much continuity to keep track of, and too much cash that stands to be lost from delaying schedules and extending contracts just to fix works that don't measure up at the end. Not to mention the loss or artistic lisence the creator would suffer. With the further implication that a given creator should actually sacrifice quality storytelling on the altar of pristine continuity, which is really not a cost-effective solution.


We can have both. Fans, ideally, shouldn't have to pick between quality stories and coherent continuity. The Holocron Keeper has a database to keep track of it all. If the information is available, I don't see why this is an unrealistic expectation. Instead of lowering the bar, let's raise it. Star Wars fans will be happier for it.

Quote:
Everything SW is continuity. Events, species, objects, locations, characters, phenomena etc. In a SW context, that word is not limited to its normal usage -especially not when I am involved. And in order to create a SW product, the creator needs to reference those. Use them. Not merely for the sake of referencing, but for the sake of storytelling. SW storytelling. And so long as he does, even if no events are referenced, even if nothing is referenced solely for the sake of reference, even if the product is skintight and bone-dry in its referencing of only things valid to the plot, it still has to reference established continuity. Of which there is too much for any but a few creators to keep track of.


Not all products are canon, though. While it may reference Star Wars and become a part of continuity broadly, it's not given the same weight. If your view is correct, then it would be canon that Mara Jade Skywalker wears a catsuit at all times - and we know that's not true.
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 PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:49 pm Reply with quote  
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  DarthMRN
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Mad Wook wrote:
So, I get credit for coining "Personal Continuity." Wink

Haha, admittedly, I don't think I have heard that used before, so why not?

Doesn't really fit with my view of the difference between Canon and Continuity, but I am all for a term specifying personal retcons rather than pick & choose.

Dancelittleewok wrote:
We can have both. Fans, ideally, shouldn't have to pick between quality stories and coherent continuity. The Holocron Keeper has a database to keep track of it all. If the information is available, I don't see why this is an unrealistic expectation. Instead of lowering the bar, let's raise it. Star Wars fans will be happier for it.

Of course we can have both. But in practice it isn't very realistic. Last I heard, Leland even sent creators copies of the Holocron, and still we get discrepancies and minor oddities, so apparently its availability for research purposes isn't enough. And from what he has said of its limitations, and their dependency on the original sources, I'm not surprised. Even the Wook is more detailed than the Holocron, apparently.

And again, creators have a contract. They are to get a product on the shelves by a given date, and along the way they have tons of things to work on besides continuity for that to happen. And the sort of adherence we want would take additional time and effort that could be -that presumably has to be- spent elsewhere. And since this is a franchise for which money comes first, the idea that they would push back schedules and extend contracts for a product that for the large majority of customers is already finished and good to go, for the sake of fixing errors found by the editing team late in production, just to appease diehards on forums, is unfortunately quite stillborn. When they have after-the-fact retcons to fall back on instead, the money saved is undoubtedly worth overlooking discrepancies over.

BTW, here is that Leland comment I mentioned having given me an inkling what was going on before Pablo spilled the beans. I can no longer source it, so you'll just have to take my word for it.

Leland and poster wrote:
How much of the continuity do you write or rewrite?

Authors and editors often ask for suggestions on an existing planet, species, or character to use or to see what can and can't be done with a certain character. When going through approvals, I'll make small changes as necessary to make things fits within continuity. I'm often asked to be involved in the early concept discussions for new stories. When continuity conflicts arise, I may make note of the issue in Holocron and come up with a couple of potential explanations which may or may not be considered in the future. Sometimes we'll create names as needed. Beyond that, we leave the actual writing to the authors.


Depressing, ain't it?

Dancelittleewok wrote:
Not all products are canon, though. While it may reference Star Wars and become a part of continuity broadly, it's not given the same weight. If your view is correct, then it would be canon that Mara Jade Skywalker wears a catsuit at all times - and we know that's not true.

Obviously, Infinites and other non-canon, as well as non-referenced S-canon are not continuity. And yes, the weight given to something in the case of a discrepancy will not be equal for all sources. But as far as the catsuit goes, that isn't the sort of thing I would be including in that caveat.

SW isn't nearly realistic enough that a defining outfit is a legitimate sign of unreliable canonicity. That said, the blatant differences between different media depicting the same events, even in modern continuity (Various TFU 1 & 2 media, I'm looking at you), does suggest that the nitty gritty details are a lot less reliable than we would like. I suppose a character wearing the same clothes all the time could be covered under that.
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 PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:18 pm Reply with quote  
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  Dog-Poop_Walker
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Ok I see what you mean, and I guess that is limiting... but isn't that why it's a Star Wars story? If authors just wanted to do their own ideas and not have to ground them in continuity, then they can write their own original stories that aren't Star Wars. That seems like the whole fundamental point of having a franchise, not just fan nitpicking.

I also don't find that Leland quote at all depressing, I find it hopeful to address that very problem you brought up. Let the writers focus on the plot and not the details, that will get hashed out in the editing process. That's what Leland and the Holocron are for.

For the most part that smooths things out and fans don't really care about the little bumps. There is a process and it works. The fans are mad when they don't stick to that process, which is usually because of issues outside of a story and the editing process.
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 PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:27 pm Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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The problem is that it hasn't been 'little edits' like Leland said. Its been tossing out and ignoring whatever they have to so that they can fit Lucas's new ideas for his pointless tv show in. That's what is causing a lot of problems.
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 PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:18 am Reply with quote  
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  DarthMRN
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Dog-Poop_Walker wrote:
Ok I see what you mean, and I guess that is limiting... but isn't that why it's a Star Wars story? If authors just wanted to do their own ideas and not have to ground them in continuity, then they can write their own original stories that aren't Star Wars. That seems like the whole fundamental point of having a franchise, not just fan nitpicking.

I think you underestimate the degree to which EU creators are held to established continuity. Between being hired for a specific project presumably not of their choosing, having to get their idea approved, periodical rough reviews, running dialogue with Licensing, and finally an approval phase of the finished product, the worst discrepancies are presumably avoided.

Considering how pleased Leland tends to be with his work, I can only imagine the flood of crap he and his peeps are in fact holding back, insufficient though it may be from our perspective. Leaving your mark of something like SW is probably a popular desire among creators.

Let's be honest, here. Within the realm of the EU only, the discrepancies we do get are of the kind only fans would even notice, and only some of us would bother nitpicking about. If this were not so, the giant gaffes caused by TCW and the PT would not have seemed as monumental as they have. And even those are probably only noticed by fans.

Quote:
I also don't find that Leland quote at all depressing, I find it hopeful to address that very problem you brought up. Let the writers focus on the plot and not the details, that will get hashed out in the editing process. That's what Leland and the Holocron are for.

It implies Leland and the Holocron only fix minor things. Outside of references made for the sake of reference, all facts used tie into the story somehow, making it that much less likely that Leland will touch any dicrepancies it causes. I can't help but find that depressing, for it means he willfully overlooks blantant errors, when theoretically he could have held the product back, were that part of his job.

Quote:
For the most part that smooths things out and fans don't really care about the little bumps. There is a process and it works. The fans are mad when they don't stick to that process, which is usually because of issues outside of a story and the editing process.

Fair enough. Personally, the whole premise for my getting into the EU was the interconnectedness, and the illusion that all stories and all facts were retained and reflected in all future ones. Accordingly, I started out with too high expecations, and everything I learn about the practical reality brings me down, bit by bit.

Caedus_16 wrote:
The problem is that it hasn't been 'little edits' like Leland said. Its been tossing out and ignoring whatever they have to so that they can fit Lucas's new ideas for his pointless tv show in. That's what is causing a lot of problems.

Leland is talking about the EU. GL plays in a league of his own, which Leland has no control or authority over. Many fans don't seem to get this, and are outraged by how poorly his statements and implied promises reflect the reality of what the PT and TCW gets to do.

All roads lead to Rome...I mean, Lucas.
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