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 PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:37 pm Reply with quote  
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  Mad Wook
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You (meaning anyone) can choose to ignore anything you want. It is your imagination. If that's not enough for you or you can't ignore it, then you need to stop reading them. This is supposed to be fun, and if it's not then why do it? Again it's just stories. If you don't like something in a history book, you can't choose to ignore it, cause generally it actually happened. But this is fiction, entertainment.


Last edited by Mad Wook on Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:53 am; edited 2 times in total


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 PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:14 pm Reply with quote  
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  Dog-Poop_Walker
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Sure you can Wook, but why? If I have to make it up myself to enjoy the story, then I'd rather write fan fic instead of reading that story. I think most people would disagree with you, and say that accepting the things it says as part of a story is a requirement for the reading experience of a narrative fiction book. Certainly the author of that book would.
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 PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:57 pm Reply with quote  
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  Mad Wook
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But is it really worth getting all bent out of shape over? Trust me, I'm talking to myself as much as anyone. But at the same time, as I can't tell the creators of the SW universe how to write their story or to keep continuity, noone can tell me or anyone else that they can't have personal canon or that it is wrong to have personal canon. You cannot control what is in someone's mind. If personal canon doesn't work for you (anyone), that doesn't make it wrong. It is each individual's own choice.

Quote:
Suffice it to say, I object to personal canon on a major level.


This is arguing over something that is not even tangible and doesn't even affect the next person. As long as it's not brought into discussion, people can think whatever they want about canon, and enjoy and dismiss whatever parts they want.


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 PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:38 pm Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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<a>Dog</a>-Poop_Walker wrote:
Sure you can Wook, but why? If I have to make it up myself to enjoy the story, then I'd rather write fan fic instead of reading that story. I think most people would disagree with you, and say that accepting the things it says as part of a story is a requirement for the reading experience of a narrative fiction book. Certainly the author of that book would.


This^

My entire reason for disliking it is that a lot of effort has been put into having a universal canon only to destroy it at the whims of the maker. You're right, if we're just going to take what we want and just ignore whole segments of writing because they don't match our personal preferences then it would all be just fan fic and I might as well write my own.

@Wook: I get bent out of shape over it because I've invested a lot of time and money into it and to just say "I'll ignore these few paragraphs because I don't like them" takes away from the integrity of the story. I'm studying to teach story for a living, I write stories, I'm picky about story, I see life as a story, so it has to be important to me. It isn't an individual's choice because ignoring certain parts of a book because you don't like them is like blacking out the harsh language in a novel because it offends you - just because you do it doesn't mean it isn't there.
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 PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:03 pm Reply with quote  
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  Baloo
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How does personal canon turn into a fanfic? I mean, it's not like there's anything really being written here and passed off as canon. I don't get that comparison.

Mad Wook is right. After all it is just fiction, not a history book. The galaxy far far away is all in a sense...created by us. Through our own enjoyment and imagination. Especially with the books. When you read a book, you're creating entire visualizations and the universe in your head that the book describes.

At the same time, don't you equally have the power to remove/ignore other parts of that said universe? Star Wars isn't actual events being transcribed by historians. After all, you're helping create it! Smile

Didn't know I opened up such a can of worms, haha.


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 PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:52 am Reply with quote  
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  Mad Wook
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It's all good. It's a good debate. Trust me, I've been playing devil's advocate more than anything. I've already had Randy Stradley up in arms this week about continuity over on the DH boards so I am on the side of keeping things up to par. And I do agree that it should be good but that won't change the fact that TCW and FOTJ have been the poorest story to come out of SW since The Crystal Star. And we each have spent a lot of money on the franchise. But I still can't let it get me too worked up and using personal canon is my way to cope. And my way of doing that is just to have an Infinities shelf that things like Underworld, Clone Wars Adventures, Star Wars Adventures, the Marvel series, etc. can go on instead of mixing them in with the rest. So don't vote me off the island yet fellas. I want nothing but quality out of SW but when I hear that the authors are just flyin by the seat of their pants with no coherent plan when coming up with FOTJ, it's either throw up my hands and give up, or pick and choose what I want and move on.


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 PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:54 am Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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Baloo wrote:
How does personal canon turn into a fanfic? I mean, it's not like there's anything really being written here and passed off as canon. I don't get that comparison.



It's the old "if George doesn't take the people he pays to write seriously and if these don't "count" then they are just glorified fanfic." -At least that's how I've always heard it.
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 PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:26 am Reply with quote  
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  Dog-Poop_Walker
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I said that if I wanted to imagine star wars the way I wanted it to be instead of the way that it is, then I'd rather write fan fic than read the novels. I don't see what is confusing about that. I don't care if Lucas takes it seriously, he publishes it under his company logo and that makes it officially Star Wars until stated otherwise.

People who call the EU fan fiction are just people that don't want to accept it, and in a way I think those people are the ones that are creating personal canon just as much as anyone.

I don't have a problem with fan fiction, but it isn't required to operate under keeping continuity and canon. It's a different set of "rules". That's the point.
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 PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:15 am Reply with quote  
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  Baloo
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Hasn't Lucas been quoted multiple times though that he plays off the entire EU as a sort of parallel universe?


Quote:
I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions.


Quote:
"I've left pretty explicit instructions for there not to be any more features. There will definitely be no Episodes VII–IX. That's because there isn't any story. I mean, I never thought of anything. And now there have been novels about the events after Episode VI, which isn't at all what I would have done with it. The Star Wars story is really the tragedy of Darth Vader. That is the story. Once Vader dies, he doesn't come back to life, the Emperor doesn't get cloned and Luke doesn't get married..."


So then...what's the problem with personal canon if Lucas obviously doesn't view it as the end-all be-all, totally part of the Star Wars universe and up to the levels of the movies?


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 PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:59 pm Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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Baloo wrote:
Hasn't Lucas been quoted multiple times though that he plays off the entire EU as a sort of parallel universe?


Quote:
I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions.


Quote:
"I've left pretty explicit instructions for there not to be any more features. There will definitely be no Episodes VII–IX. That's because there isn't any story. I mean, I never thought of anything. And now there have been novels about the events after Episode VI, which isn't at all what I would have done with it. The Star Wars story is really the tragedy of Darth Vader. That is the story. Once Vader dies, he doesn't come back to life, the Emperor doesn't get cloned and Luke doesn't get married..."


So then...what's the problem with personal canon if Lucas obviously doesn't view it as the end-all be-all, totally part of the Star Wars universe and up to the levels of the movies?


Lucas has been quoted saying many things, mostly conflicting when it comes to canon. But int he end Personal Canon is the same level as N-level canon. GL's not caring about the EU isn't 100% the problem. the problem in this case is that something made by GL then gets shoveled into all the new EU materials. Over and over again. And then there's the fact that he HAS gotten involved with the direction of the book and comic's plots in the past- even though he's been quoted as not doing so. As with canon GL quotes are only as good as long as a new one doesn't come out.

Going to an extreme as an example of how it works; if GL decided to put into TCW Han Solo- and then decides to have Han lose a whole arm- and gets it replaced with a human replica one, (think of the Hobbie example given earlier) then all references created after that point would find a way to reference this- which could be ok, but they tend to never explain the previous lack of mentions in any ways that make sense. They could leave it alone and leave it an unspoken thing - but they hardly do.

Another mild example- TCW gives Mace an R8 droid- R8 droids did not exist at this timeframe. (there were sources that had the histories of the R series droids) The simple solution would have been to recognize that droids have long serial numbers and their "R2" "R8" titles are nicknames R2D2C43R81138B

But they haven't because that could be seen as infringing on what GL provided in TCW- but the real rub- GL probably had nothing to do with Mace having an "R8" droid. GL's stamp is all over THIS series. even if he only works on a few episodes.


Personal Canon works as a coping mechanism, but it won't work for Fandom because few 2 Personal Canons will see it the same.

Now if each level of canon could exist without being overrode or changed by another level then that would be better still. But as long as the EU continues to shift to what ever the new arc brings to the table on TCW there will be an opening for older material to be overrode.

We have talked about AU's being confusing- but I have to ask- isn't what's happened to Alpha confusing? Or Asajj in Betrayal?

The only thing I can think of where they left an EU thing mostly alone through a play of words is Aurra Sing- she's lost her Force Sensitivity in TCW- but they just decided to go with "you won't see her use the Force in TCW" So there is an example of them doing it right, but they didn't continue that. Mandalore- Ryloth- there are no "Official" fixes to what they have done there- and until they do there is potential for disaster- at present they are leaving it alone and letting fans come up with retcons of their own. And to me that process is confusing. It seems so senseless.
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 PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:12 am Reply with quote  
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  Baloo
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It is a shame that George doesn't really work within the set canon, we saw him do this with the prequel trilogy as well... Confused


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 PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:45 am Reply with quote  
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  Dancelittleewok
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Pablo Hidalgo tweeted, "The RPG tie ins to those very books said this:"

Quote:
This and all other products that take place after the events in the Return of the Jedi are in the author's vision of what may have happened. The true fate of the heroes and villains in the Star Wars universe remains the exclusive province of George Lucas and Lucasfilm Ltd.

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 PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:04 am Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Not that Lucasbooks is signed onto his estate or anything...
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 PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:00 pm Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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Dancelittleewok wrote:
Pablo Hidalgo tweeted, "The RPG tie ins to those very books said this:"

Quote:
This and all other products that take place after the events in the Return of the Jedi are in the author's vision of what may have happened. The true fate of the heroes and villains in the Star Wars universe remains the exclusive province of George Lucas and Lucasfilm Ltd.


Aaaaand this is even more disgusting.
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 PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:01 pm Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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Caedus_16 wrote:
Dancelittleewok wrote:
Pablo Hidalgo tweeted, "The RPG tie ins to those very books said this:"

Quote:
This and all other products that take place after the events in the Return of the Jedi are in the author's vision of what may have happened. The true fate of the heroes and villains in the Star Wars universe remains the exclusive province of George Lucas and Lucasfilm Ltd.


Aaaaand this is even more disgusting.




Indeed! And yet may be promising. If a complete schism can be seenas a positive. Which I lean towards.
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