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 PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 9:37 pm Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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VileZero wrote:
Watch five minutes of the RotS and RotJ space battles, and tell me which you think looks better. There's only one answer: RotS.


Lol that may be true but I still love the last battle in RotJ better, no matter how it looks on DVD Very Happy
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 PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 11:32 pm Reply with quote  
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  VileZero
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Caedus_16 wrote:
VileZero wrote:
Watch five minutes of the RotS and RotJ space battles, and tell me which you think looks better. There's only one answer: RotS.


Lol that may be true but I still love the last battle in RotJ better, no matter how it looks on DVD Very Happy


Oh, too true!

The more I watch the RotS opening scene, the more I wish we actually got to see a larger picture of the epic battle. Would have been way more exciting than buzz droids. Ugh.


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 PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 1:08 am Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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VileZero wrote:
Quote:
I disagree with VileZero about the films not being shot in HD.


I... whaaa? You can't disagree with me... they weren't shot in HD. I mean, that's a fact. Doesn't matter what 35mm transfers to now, it's still not HD.


I understand what you're thinking, but film has *always* been higher quality than HD, which is a marketing term. Here's a few links explaining it:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080125205027AA4Ej9d

"Movies have been filmed with 35mm film for decades. It is vastly superior to HD. Film has much better resolution. Resolution for HD video is measured in pixels, while actual film doesn't have pixels. However, for the sake of comparison, HD video is around 2 million pixels per frame. Film has closer to 12 million. This is why even old movies like The Maltese Falcon can be easily transferred to HD and look beautiful - the original is even higher quality."

Here's another one: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ptorr/archive/2007/09/26/why-old-films-still-benefit-from-high-def.aspx

"Every now and then, I hear people make comments like "Movies more than 5 years old won't look any better in HD because they were shot before HD was invented the movie studios are lying to you about better quality!"

This is horribly, horribly, horribly wrong, and I'm not quite sure where this idea stems from.

A "Full HD" image (as the marketing people like to call it) is 1920 pixels wide by 1080 pixels high. Now that sounds like an awful lot of pixels (especially compared to Standard Definition) but it's small compared to the "resolution" of a good film stock.

Although film doesn't have well-defined "pixels" like digital video does it is based on tiny particles inside the film's chemical structure you can get an approximation to digital pixels and the current thinking is that it is around 6- to 8- thousand pixels horizontally (not vertically) something the marketing folks would probably call "Ultimate HD 4320p" or some other silly name."


Most of the issues you have with the DVD version of the original trilogy stem more from the transfer process than anything wrong with the film. The film quality itself ought to be really good after it was cleaned up for the Special Editions. Those versions did not have the lightsaber issues that the DVD did; it was the transfer. Evidently Lucas had the films recolored for DVD release, which led to the issues:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWRs0ZD8ay4

So perhaps it's possible the blu-rays will have the same problems if they're crappy transfers, but I'm hopeful that they're not and the videos I've seen have suggested they're not.

For instance, in the blu-ray trailer they released back in January, it looks to me like they've recolored Qui-Gon's lightsaber so it's a brighter and more vibrant green than it originally was.

I'll see if I can get a high quality image of both.

Edit:



The colors look a lot better in the blu-ray trailer.


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 PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 7:06 am Reply with quote  
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  Old Master Ben
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And it's so much more clear too! Vile, if you're really worried that the Blu-Ray won't do much to improve the picture, just wait for some of us to get it in September. We'll tell you if it's an amazing difference or not.


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 PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 9:55 am Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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VileZero wrote:
Caedus_16 wrote:
VileZero wrote:
Watch five minutes of the RotS and RotJ space battles, and tell me which you think looks better. There's only one answer: RotS.


Lol that may be true but I still love the last battle in RotJ better, no matter how it looks on DVD Very Happy


Oh, too true!

The more I watch the RotS opening scene, the more I wish we actually got to see a larger picture of the epic battle. Would have been way more exciting than buzz droids. Ugh.


Did you read the novelization of that one? The battle was almost half the book, it was epic, I loved it!
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 PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 11:09 am Reply with quote  
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  wookie_inked
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the buzz droids killed all the excitement of that scene for me

ugh


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 PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 11:26 am Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Caedus_16 wrote:
VileZero wrote:
Watch five minutes of the RotS and RotJ space battles, and tell me which you think looks better. There's only one answer: RotS.


Lol that may be true but I still love the last battle in RotJ better, no matter how it looks on DVD Very Happy

That made me make a double take. Wink

I'll agree that emotionally the RotJ battle was superior, but visually the RotS battle is uncontested.
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 PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 7:42 pm Reply with quote  
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  VileZero
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LivingJediDream wrote:
VileZero wrote:
Quote:
I disagree with VileZero about the films not being shot in HD.


I... whaaa? You can't disagree with me... they weren't shot in HD. I mean, that's a fact. Doesn't matter what 35mm transfers to now, it's still not HD.


I understand what you're thinking, but film has *always* been higher quality than HD, which is a marketing term. Here's a few links explaining it:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080125205027AA4Ej9d

"Movies have been filmed with 35mm film for decades. It is vastly superior to HD. Film has much better resolution. Resolution for HD video is measured in pixels, while actual film doesn't have pixels. However, for the sake of comparison, HD video is around 2 million pixels per frame. Film has closer to 12 million. This is why even old movies like The Maltese Falcon can be easily transferred to HD and look beautiful - the original is even higher quality."

Here's another one: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ptorr/archive/2007/09/26/why-old-films-still-benefit-from-high-def.aspx

"Every now and then, I hear people make comments like "Movies more than 5 years old won't look any better in HD because they were shot before HD was invented the movie studios are lying to you about better quality!"

This is horribly, horribly, horribly wrong, and I'm not quite sure where this idea stems from.

A "Full HD" image (as the marketing people like to call it) is 1920 pixels wide by 1080 pixels high. Now that sounds like an awful lot of pixels (especially compared to Standard Definition) but it's small compared to the "resolution" of a good film stock.

Although film doesn't have well-defined "pixels" like digital video does it is based on tiny particles inside the film's chemical structure you can get an approximation to digital pixels and the current thinking is that it is around 6- to 8- thousand pixels horizontally (not vertically) something the marketing folks would probably call "Ultimate HD 4320p" or some other silly name."


Most of the issues you have with the DVD version of the original trilogy stem more from the transfer process than anything wrong with the film. The film quality itself ought to be really good after it was cleaned up for the Special Editions. Those versions did not have the lightsaber issues that the DVD did; it was the transfer. Evidently Lucas had the films recolored for DVD release, which led to the issues:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWRs0ZD8ay4

So perhaps it's possible the blu-rays will have the same problems if they're crappy transfers, but I'm hopeful that they're not and the videos I've seen have suggested they're not.

For instance, in the blu-ray trailer they released back in January, it looks to me like they've recolored Qui-Gon's lightsaber so it's a brighter and more vibrant green than it originally was.

I'll see if I can get a high quality image of both.

Edit:



The colors look a lot better in the blu-ray trailer.


Leaving aside the debate of 35mm (I'm sorry, I can't take Yahoo Answers as a credible source for anything period), the comparison images you posted did intrigue me. But catching TPM on Spike TV tonight, Qui-Gon's lightsaber was DEFINITELY as bright as it was in the second image. They also don't appear to be the same frame in each image, so that might have something to do with the overall brightness.


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 PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 8:44 pm Reply with quote  
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  Ruhk Orikan
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Definately not the same scene. Look at the position of Qui-Gon's head and Obi Wan's left arm, different positions.


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 PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 8:49 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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I didn't spend the time to get identical frames (it was a bit of a rush job), but I can. I'm going to post three full resolution images, one from the DVD, one from the SpikeHD, and one from the blu-ray trailer (which is in 1080p). Here's a link to the 1080p one from the blu-ray trailer:

http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/3338/1080p.png

I need to find my DVD copy and transfer the SpikeHD recording.

Also, I had provided a second link with regard to 35mm film resolution, but you can google it and find plenty of elaboration and corroboration if necessary. Wiki "high definition video" and that entry explains how film resolution is higher than the two HD resolutions of 1280x720 and 1920x1080.

Edit: http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/how-to/4258801 Here's a Popular Mechanics article about it. TPM DVD screenshot forthcoming... it's difficult to match the frame because the trailer isn't the film, so I can't go by the time on the video. That's why I didn't try with the earlier two pictures.

Edit 2: I think I have it....
DVD:

HDTV:

Blu-ray Trailer:


Clicking the image takes you to the full sized image. Which in the case of the DVD version is what is already posted. I was having difficulty getting the DVD synced up on the proper frame from the earlier blu-ray screenshot.

Edit 3: I've added in another HD image from HDTV broadcast versions. As with the blu-ray trailer one, clicking the image takes you to a full size version. But even in the 640x480 resizes I did for the thread, you can see that the HDTV version is much sharper than the DVD version, but it has the same coloring, which is distinctly different than the coloring in the blu-ray trailer. Qui-Gon's lightsaber is noticeably different in color.


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 PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:51 am Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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Having done some more research into this as well as the 2004 DVD releases, it seems that the issue with the color palette on the DVD release could very well continue to be an issue on the blu-ray, as it seems that George Lucas personally oversaw the remastering process that the DVD used -- and it seems that the blu-rays are using them unless otherwise stated. The blu-ray trailer does depict the same messed up lightsabers in Return of the Jedi that the DVD had. Here's a rush job getting captures of how it looks in the BD trailer, and how it SHOULD look from the original release (hidden behind spoiler because it breaks the frame and I'm too lazy to resize):
Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)

If the video is properly mastered from the source, the black "slug" on the Emperor should be removed as well. It's my understanding -- and I didn't personally see it -- that it simply wasn't present in the original theatrical release of Return of the Jedi as it was matted to the coloration of the film, and the conversion to home video is what resulted in its appearance.

As for the remastering of The Phantom Menace, it was necessary to insert digital Yoda.

Edit: It seems that the remastering done for the 2004 DVD release actually does improve colors quite a bit, but the process itself is the cause of the lightsaber gaffes and some weird coloring in scenes where it isn't appropriate.


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 PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:19 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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http://www.tweaktown.com/articles/3768/the_top_20_films_unreleased_on_blu_ray_part_iv/index2.html

According to this article, Lowry Digital is remastering the original trilogy for the blu-ray release. I've also found a claim that the video on the blu-ray trailer is not indicative of the final video on the blu-rays, as they have not been encoded yet.

I'm wondering if the color grading on The Phantom Menace clips is a result of the film having been remastered for its 3D conversion, and that master is being used for the blu-ray, hence allowing its usage for the trailer.

So we could get great transfers for the blu-rays after all.


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 PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:10 pm Reply with quote  
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  Jedi Master Skid
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I don't have a blu ray player but I will be buying this when it comes out. So I will have the OT on video from when they were first released, The 97 special editions on DVD, The gold box set of the OT on dvd, The origianl cinema sceening on dvd and then The Blu-Ray version.
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 PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:44 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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It's now believed that there's a new master -- at least for Episode IV -- based on the footage shown at comic con and the screenshots here:

http://starwarsblog.starwars.com/index.php/2011/07/21/comic-con-2011-the-rebel-experience/





Namely, you can actually see the stars -- black crush is eliminated.

Compared to the DVD:


And you can't just turn the brightness up on this to see the stars (or rather, turn the contrast up); the source itself is that dark, and so stuff that should be there but is too dark to see is lost. This was an issue with the DVD but definitely appears corrected with the blu-ray.


Last edited by Crash Override on Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:28 pm; edited 1 time in total


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 PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:57 am Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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StarWars.com also has a teaser trailer for the deleted scenes which is pretty cool:
http://www.starwars.com/video/view/001267.html
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