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 PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:28 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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Cerrinea wrote:
LivingJediDream wrote:
I find it curious that my initial point about the narratives being dominated by the Jedi and their concerns has turned toward disliking Bantam characterizations.


Yeah Bantam is an old and getting really tired discussion. Been there, done that, over it.

LJD, I do get your point about Jedi domination, but as I said, Allston helps rectify that in Conviction.

Also, Jedi are one of the central themes of Star Wars, and they're kind of hard to not be a part of it. Personally, I don't really like stories that don't have Jedi in them.


Fair enough, but personally I'm tired of these "Legacy of the Force" and "Fate of the Jedi" stories in which the Jedi are the fulcrum of the story. The original Thrawn trilogy, which is generally considered the best EU and is what started the EU, doesn't have that. It's not necessary for every story, but pretty much every big series Del Rey has done, including NJO, is focused on the Jedi to the extent that they or the Force are in the title.

I think they were successful with the NJO in that respect, but it would be nice to see a more ambiguity in the threat. A second galactic civil war would have been much more effective in LOTF, for instance, if there weren't clear cut good and bad sides. I think they tried to do that, but putting a Sith Lord as chief of state as one tends to eliminate that.

If there was no Sith involvement, and merely different Jedi on different sides, THAT would have been immensely more interesting.


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 PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:32 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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Well, then you get Allston to write an entire series. He seems to be the only one who can write a wider picture with all kinds of players. Just look at his Enemy Lines duology for NJO. Who was the real hero there? Wedge.
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 PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:36 pm Reply with quote  
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Cerrinea wrote:
Well, then you get Allston to write an entire series. He seems to be the only one who can write a wider picture with all kinds of players. Just look at his Enemy Lines duology for NJO. Who was the real hero there? Wedge.


I think that's part of the problem. Are there any other franchises or intellectual properties that have these sorts of nine book series that alternate authors? I've never heard of it. The format is simply not conducive toward storytelling, IMO. I don't know why they did it again. Why not just have each author do a trilogy each? They can be sequels to each other, and the discrepancies will only occur at the end of each trilogy, instead of every single book. Allston seems to be the only author I really enjoy that's doing this sort of thing now, the others have either jumped ship from Star Wars (Stover, Stackpole) or are doing their own thing only (Zahn, Luceno).


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 PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:46 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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Well, either Sue or Shelly said after FOTJ there won't be anymore 9 book, 3 author series. That works for me, but I hope they keep Christie Golden busy.
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 PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:04 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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I like how Han and Leia are written by Del Rey. In Bantam Leia was a stuck-up "our way or the highway" politician and Han's character development was stunted to preserve his whole scoundrel thing.
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 PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:33 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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Wow. I'm gone a little over a day and the whole thread blows up like a TIE in an asteroid field. So I'm just going to comment randomly:

About Tenel Ka not being a warrior queen, seen fighting Sith off one-handed: She may not be in a lightsabre fight, but we just might see her at the head of an armada of Battle Dragons.

And about Han being handcuffed to Leia. I just don't see it that way. Much in the way I didn't see Chewie being handcuffed to Han. They were a double act. Where one goes, the other does, too. And I liked him in Solo Command. He was fighting the chains that were placed on him, when he became a general, but never shook them off, instead doing his duty effectively.

As for Jedi not being the fulcrum of TTT: that was pretty much because Luke was the 'only' Jedi around at the time. You can hardly have Jedi popping up everywhere in a time when it was said he's the only one. But, even then, there were still variations. Luuke and Joruus were twisted forms of Dark Jedi; and Mara, well, it's Mara! So even then, when there were very few who could be called Jedi, the Jedi way still played a prominent role.

Regarding other franchises that use the alternate author format: our own Nathan Butler is involved in just such a format, with his Wars Novellas.
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 PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:20 am Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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Non-Jedi centric stories work for me. The Bane Trilogy gave us a Sith-centric story, and the Republic Commando novels gave us trooper-centric novels. Whether you disliked where that series went or not, just about everyone loved the first Republic Commando novel.

I think there's room for a smuggler novel. Shadow Games might give us that with Dash Rendar.
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 PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:53 am Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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Life Is The Path wrote:
And about Han being handcuffed to Leia. I just don't see it that way. Much in the way I didn't see Chewie being handcuffed to Han. They were a double act. Where one goes, the other does, too. And I liked him in Solo Command. He was fighting the chains that were placed on him, when he became a general, but never shook them off, instead doing his duty effectively.


Chewbacca doesn't go everywhere with Han. He's with Leia for a great deal of the Thrawn trilogy, has his own subplot in the Black Fleet trilogy, is with the Solo children in the Corellian trilogy, and also protects the Solo children off-screen entirely in the Hand of Thrawn duology. So I find it odd that Han and Leia are attached at the hip in LOTF/FOTJ when even Chewbacca, who had a life debt to Han, didn't spend nearly as much time with him. Han and Leia spent a healthy amount of time apart in NJO, because they had lives outside of each other. And the writers weren't so heavily reliant upon the Jedi for their stories that they could have Han do stuff that didn't involve Jedi. But then, they even had Leia doing stuff not involving the Jedi! Somehow, they managed this.

Life Is The Path wrote:
As for Jedi not being the fulcrum of TTT: that was pretty much because Luke was the 'only' Jedi around at the time. You can hardly have Jedi popping up everywhere in a time when it was said he's the only one. But, even then, there were still variations. Luuke and Joruus were twisted forms of Dark Jedi; and Mara, well, it's Mara! So even then, when there were very few who could be called Jedi, the Jedi way still played a prominent role.


It's fine if Jedi or the "Jedi way" play a prominent role in a story. But since Del Rey took over, they pretty much have dominated every story, to the exclusion of pretty much any non-Jedi character being consider a "main character." The only way they've kept Han as a "main character" in FOTJ is by having him attached to Leia at the hip, otherwise he would have absolutely nothing to do in the series. Why else would Han be involved in
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And how about the Hand of Thrawn duology, which had no Dark Jedi or dark side threat at all? And had Luke's Jedi Order fully established? Unless people here hate that too?


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 PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:04 am Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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The reason Han and Leia had separate lives in NJO is because Chewie was killed and Han went off the deep end. When he and Leia finally reconciled, they were pretty much constantly together after that. I don't see anything unreasonable about Han and Leia being "joined at the hip". They've proven over and over that they make a good, effective team, and I like them written that way. They lost Chewie, Anakin and Jacen. They're raising Allana. It makes sense in a lot of ways for them to be together. Luke and Mara were practically joined at the hip too for the same reason; they made a good team.

It works so if it ain't broke don't fix it.
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 PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:16 am Reply with quote  
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Eh, well that's why Harrison Ford wanted Han Solo killed off in Return of the Jedi. Once his arc was completed, the character had no growth. Killing off Chewbacca gave him a new arc and character development, and now he's stagnant again.

To each their own I guess. To be fair, I liked Han and Leia's subplots together in Hand of Thrawn, Enemy Lines, and The Unifying Force.


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 PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:52 pm Reply with quote  
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  Shahla 'lala
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Salaris Vorn wrote:
Mara Jade Skywalker wrote:
Mara's death, Mara's death, Mara's death! You really had to ask? Crying or Very sad


I second this. I'd have liked it if Zahn could have done many more novels involving Mara. I really liked how Zahn was developing things and I'm disappointed that they closed off that avenue. Who knows how many awesome novels he could have written post-Thrawn trilogy if Mara had been kept alive?


To get back on topic..... Rolling Eyes

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Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad

Ditto with Zahn comment...


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 PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:49 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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I think that just about everything that can be said about Mara's death has been said. Mainly, serious fail all the way around, guys.

Meanwhile...I don't see Han as stagnant at all. And Harrison Ford doesn't get a vote in the killing Han off question.

But the single thing I'd change about the EU? Let's just erase all of LOTF. Ghastly series.
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 PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:41 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Cerrinea wrote:
The reason Han and Leia had separate lives in NJO is because Chewie was killed and Han went off the deep end. When he and Leia finally reconciled, they were pretty much constantly together after that. I don't see anything unreasonable about Han and Leia being "joined at the hip". They've proven over and over that they make a good, effective team, and I like them written that way. They lost Chewie, Anakin and Jacen. They're raising Allana. It makes sense in a lot of ways for them to be together. Luke and Mara were practically joined at the hip too for the same reason; they made a good team.

It works so if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Exactly. Han and Leia work best when they're together. Seperate they're good characters but together they're awesome! Cool
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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:23 am Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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So would Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor count for or against the Jedi centric theme? It starred Luke, who is a Jedi, but the main villain was a follower of the Dark, so quasi Sith. The Jedi Order wasn't a central theme, but a threat to the New Republic was.

And going back to the thread topic and LOTF, the series could have been salvaged some if instead of making Jacen falling to the dark side the main, up front focus, they did as Livingjedidream said and made the Galactic Civil War the main focus. That happened in the background of the series, but to me, as a reader, it seemed far more interesting than Jacen's storyline.

If the whole series would have focused on the war, from beginning to end, it might have helped create an environment where it made more sense for the characters to do what they did. They could have used the war to push Jacen to the dark side. They could have used the war to show us why the galaxy was suddenly open to Daala as their leader.

Changing steps a bit, if they really wanted Jacen's fall to be believable, they should have killed Allana. Do it in such a way that Jacen's affinity for the light side caused it to happen. Some bad guy threatened her and he hesitated because of a threat to innocent civilians. Afterward, he changes his ideas and this leads him down to the path of the dark side. If we add in a new, heavy focus on the war, it would be easy enough to ramp up the pressure.

But that all goes back to the problem that most Jacen fans didn't want to see Jacen go dark, and it's not a good idea to write books people don't want to read.
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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:36 am Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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You know, I just have to put Stover books in a class by themselves. They're that good.

But I really like your ideas about why Jacen falls. Mara's death was just an idiotic reason. And you know they wrote the whole sacrifice idea in LOTF like it was carved in stone somewhere, and it never was. But if it was, then Allana's death makes way more sense than absolutely anyone else dying. And the progression you've described is much more believable than what was done. Actually I could just about see Tenel Ka going dark too. Now that would make a story; Jacen and TK dark together.
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