Log in to check your private messages
One Thing
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The EUCantina Forums Forum Index » Aush's EU Cantina View previous topic :: View next topic  
 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:10 am Reply with quote  
Message
  Werehunter
Knight
Knight

Joined: 08 Apr 2011
Posts: 362

To be fair, they had Jacen well on the dark path before they had him kill Mara. That just seemed to be what locked him onto the path, not what put him onto it. And Skuldren, it was Jacen's open heart that caused him to fall. They flat out said that in the story, that Jacen didn't fall because he was selfish but rather because he was selfless. That he was willing to fall and damn himself for the good of galaxy. In a way, that twist was the one thing I liked about his fall.

That said, they certainly should have focused more on the Civil War. The big problem that Del Ray did, was to put story above character. If I remember interviews correctly, Anakin Solo was originally the one who was supposed to become a Sith and Jacen was to die in New Jedi Order. But Lucas nixed the idea of Anakin falling to the darkside because he didn't want both Anakins taking the same path. (Which I actually agree with. Especially since they had Leia give Anakin his name to cast off her fears of her children falling to the darkside.) Instead of coming up with a new story, they just decided to exchange the character's stories. However that didn't work nearly as well, as shown with Tahri. I'm pretty sure her story was always to side with Anakin as a Sith before finding her way back and it didn't work nearly as well with Jacen there instead. When Lucas nixed the story idea, they should have gone an entirely different route. But instead they were so focused on their story that they missed the fact it didn't work with that one simple change.

If they focused solely on the Civil War, they story could still have had many of the same conflicts within the Skywalker and Solo families. With them supporting different sides, much like they had Wedge fighting for one side and his daughter another.


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:15 am Reply with quote  
Message
  Cerrinea
Master
Master

Joined: 09 Jun 2009
Posts: 1491

I never bought that whole "Jacen became Sith because it's the selfless thing to do" idea. It's completely idiotic -- especially in light of TUF. Plus it's in the process of being retconned by FOTJ.

And it still doesn't make Mara being the not sacrifice any more rational. Actually, the only way to make sense of Mara's death is by having Jacen be your regular old evil Sith.

And yes the Jacen/Tahiri angle was very forced imo.

Actually the whole series was forced.
_________________
Roqoo Depot co-founder.


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:27 am Reply with quote  
Message
  Nedara
Knight
Knight

Joined: 08 Apr 2011
Posts: 396

Jacen's fall is in some sense selfless, but it's in the fanatic sense. Of course he renounced to his "soul" for a better good, so it's selfless, but only because he thinks he has the absolute truth. To me, it makes much more sense that just "I have decided to be Sith, so from now on, I'll be very, very, very evil".


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:29 am Reply with quote  
Message
  Werehunter
Knight
Knight

Joined: 08 Apr 2011
Posts: 362

There I have to disagree with you. The idea of The Unifying Force is actually the only way it makes sense. Jacen was convinced by Vergere that there was no Dark Side or Light Side just the Force. That left him far more open to taking paths that he wouldn't do otherwise. In Dark Nest, the rest of the Jedi disregarded this mindset and went back to how things were. But Jacen did not. His actions during that series showed him still following that mindset. So when told that all he knew about the Sith was wrong, and that he could do more good for the galaxy with Sith teachings there was nothing to stop him. Since he no long held to the idea that Sith was of the Dark Side, why not become one if it will help people. Only because he wanted to help the galaxy does it make any sense for him to start training to become a Sith.

That said, I still think it was a stupid decision. That entire series is the second worst Star Wars series that I've read, right below Dark Fleet.

Oh and Mara's death makes sense if you look at simply as Jacen defending himself. Remember he did not set out to kill her or even to sacrifice her. She attacked him and he defended himself. Mara would have killed him if he didn't kill her. She became the method of sacrifice not because he wanted it, but rather he knew that by killing her everyone he cared about would turn on him. He could have kept himself from killing her, but decided to despite everything that one act would cost her.

But it was still a stupid decision.


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:31 am Reply with quote  
Message
  Cerrinea
Master
Master

Joined: 09 Jun 2009
Posts: 1491

That whole selfless stuff was just Jacen's rationalization because he wanted more power. That was foreshadowed at the end of TUF.

Imo, LOTF was and will always be the character assassination of Jacen Solo. It started in DNT, but it could have gone either way. LOTF set it in stone.
_________________
Roqoo Depot co-founder.


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:35 am Reply with quote  
Message
  Queen Padmè Skywalker
Master
Master

Joined: 17 Jul 2009
Posts: 5163
Location: Sitting in front of a fireplace on Naboo exchanging pathetic dialogue with Anakin

Cerrinea wrote:
That whole selfless stuff was just Jacen's rationalization because he wanted more power. That was foreshadowed at the end of TUF.

Imo, LOTF was and will always be the character assassination of Jacen Solo. It started in DNT, but it could have gone either way. LOTF set it in stone.


I agree that the "selfess" aspect was just Jacen's reasoning to make what he was doing "right". Much in the same way that Anakin Skywalker initially tried to reason that destroying the Jedi was "right" because they had betrayed the Republic and, of course, he had to join Palpatine to save Padme.

I still considering LotF to be a major blow to the EU. I was upset when Jacen was given Anakin Solo's arc in the NJO, but to then have Jacen fall? And badly? It still pains me.
_________________
All things die, Anakin Skywalker, even stars burn out.

So this is how liberty dies....with thunderous applause.



Those without swords can still die upon them

The world is a mess and I just need to rule it.


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:38 am Reply with quote  
Message
  Nedara
Knight
Knight

Joined: 08 Apr 2011
Posts: 396

I don't think he wished so much power. I mean, all he had to do was just wait and he would have had Luke office in the order.

But he had a radicalization of his view of things and he just began to decided he was wiser than anyone else. In fact, I see Jacen in LotF very much like Jacen at the beginning of NJO. His behavior is very much the same. For example, his decision about the attack against the Chiss depot in DN reminds me a lot when he went to save the slaves in Belkadan.


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:46 am Reply with quote  
Message
  Cerrinea
Master
Master

Joined: 09 Jun 2009
Posts: 1491

I've heard the argument about Mara's death being legit cause Jacen did it in self defense. That just doesn't wash for me. First off, Mara told Jacen to give up the Sith nonsense. She gave him a choice. She offered redemption -- which is what Jedi do. Then they kill Sith when redemption is rejected. There's no other option. Sith, by their nature, kill Jedi because they are the obstruction to achieving their ends.

Nedara, power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely. Jacen had already started down the road of power-seeking during his Force journey. And I agree with Werehunter; it was Jacen's view of the Force that made him susceptible to corruption. This is why Jedi do not seek power. They allow themselves to be used by the light side of the Force.
_________________
Roqoo Depot co-founder.


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:53 am Reply with quote  
Message
  Nedara
Knight
Knight

Joined: 08 Apr 2011
Posts: 396

I agree about Mara's death, but about Jacen...

Well, that all thing about corruption because of power makes no sense at all in the Star Wars story. If that would be true, Luke would have been a dark sider for decades. And it's better if we don't talk about Yoda.

The fact is every single person can decide what he/she wish to do. Jacen always thought he was right and the rest of the galaxy was wrong (again, the Belkadan example) and made a lot of mistakes. His five years journey was just another way to convince himself he was smarter and wiser than anyone else. Especially, Luke. Part of Jacen still has this "alpha male" complex.

In short, he was always tempted by the dark side, even when he thought too much about avoiding it.


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:10 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Cerrinea
Master
Master

Joined: 09 Jun 2009
Posts: 1491

Nedara, I think you're confusing Luke's strong Force connection with power. They aren't the same thing. Force users aren't equal in their connection to the Force. Some are stronger than others. The fact that Anakin Skywalker was the strongest force user didn't make him a Sith. It was his choice that made him one, and it's really clear in ROTS that Anakin wants power.

First off, the Jedi seek to not act out of emotion. It's central to their belief. The Sith on the other hand use their emotions to harness the Force, particularly the darker emotions such as anger and hate And of course, they use the dark side of the Force whereas the Jedi only use the light side.
_________________
Roqoo Depot co-founder.


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:18 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Nedara
Knight
Knight

Joined: 08 Apr 2011
Posts: 396

C'mon, Luke is quite powerful and not just in a Force-sensitive power. We have seen what Jedi can do with governments if they want. And Luke controls the whole Jedi order. If that's not be a powerful man, really, I don't know what it is.

And yes, he doesn't like to lose it either. He made himself Grand Master after all, remember? If he would have decided he wanted to rule the galaxy, who would have opposed him? So, yes, he is powerful and is not corrupted by his power.


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:24 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Cerrinea
Master
Master

Joined: 09 Jun 2009
Posts: 1491

Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)


Having the ability to take power doesn't equate with being powerful. Luke does not take power which means he's behaving like a Jedi.

Also, he reluctantly took on the role of Grandmaster because the Masters Council was fracturing the Jedi Order. He tried to not have to do that and it was his only option. Besides it's not the first time the Jedi Order's had a grandmaster.
_________________
Roqoo Depot co-founder.


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:31 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Nedara
Knight
Knight

Joined: 08 Apr 2011
Posts: 396

Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)


Literally, being powerful is have power. Luke have that power, even if he decided not to use it. Don't misunderstood a personal decision -acording to his own rules or moral- with a lack of power.

By the way, Palpatine reluctantly overthrew the Republic, too...


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:52 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Jedi Joe
Master
Master

Joined: 11 Jun 2009
Posts: 1530

Hmm, erasing the entire Yuuzhan Vong race wouldn't be bad...

Chewie wouldn't be dead, Anakin wouldn't be dead, the characters wouldn't be emotionally scarred, and the galaxy wouldn't be screwed over. Plus, an even more sound opportunity for a sequel trilogy!


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:34 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Werehunter
Knight
Knight

Joined: 08 Apr 2011
Posts: 362

Cerrinea wrote:
I've heard the argument about Mara's death being legit cause Jacen did it in self defense. That just doesn't wash for me. First off, Mara told Jacen to give up the Sith nonsense. She gave him a choice. She offered redemption -- which is what Jedi do. Then they kill Sith when redemption is rejected. There's no other option. Sith, by their nature, kill Jedi because they are the obstruction to achieving their ends.


I'm sorry but that's bull. Yes she offered him a choice, but she still went after Jacen, all by herself, with the intent to kill him. She knew he wouldn't take the offer. She went after him, not to save him, but to assassinate him.

As for your differences between Sith and Jedi, again I disagree with you. It's not like the Jedi are constantly offering the Lost Tribe Sith a choice. Luke and Ben both have killed several without offering any type of choice. So I think the Jedi are better then Sith, of course. But to say Jedi kill Sith because they have no choice and Sith kill Jedi because they are evil is far to simplistic. In the case of Mara and Jacen, Jacen didn't kill Mara because she was in his way. He killed her simply because she was trying to kill him. Several times in the earlier books, Jacen encountered Jedi who were in his way and never tried to kill them. In fact the only time he killed any Jedi was when they tried to kill him. He also tried to disarm the Jedi without killing all them by holding the students hostages. Now I'm not saying that was a good way to do it, in fact it was down right evil. But it does counter your, they kill Jedi because they are in their way argument.


View user's profile Send private message

Post new topic   Reply to topic    The EUCantina Forums Forum Index » Aush's EU Cantina

Page 6 of 9
All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next

Display posts from previous:

  

Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
Jedi Knights 2 by Scott Stubblefield