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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:00 pm Reply with quote  
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  Werehunter
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They also really didn't offer Alema redemption. I don't considering asking once for someone to come back into the light and then attacking to be anything more then pointless words. Especially when the person fell like she did. Unlike others, Alema's fall to the darkside was not really her fault. Sure there were parts of her that made her acceptable to the influence of the Dark Nest more then the others, but she still fell because she became a Joiner rather then any choice she made. Considering how strong of control the nests had on Joiners, they made a pitiful attempt to help her. Oddly only just before her death did she seem to regain her sanity, only to have them kill her anyways.

And I don't think Mara contradicted herself in that after death scene. In a way she did commit a horrific act by going and trying to assassinate her nephew. She had several options open to her before she decided to act as the Emperor's Hand rather then a Jedi. The way she went about it was good intentions, wanting to protect her son, but bad act, going for the kill rather then offering redemption. At least that's the way I looked at the scene.


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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:07 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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But she specifically says that it was her intentions that are causing her current state, not her actions.


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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:14 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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They offered Alema a chance to rejoin the Jedi a ton of times. While I really don't like LOTF they did attempt to get her back.

Alema maybe regained her sanity, but it wasn't until she was cornered without any escape which kind of makes one wonder. When Jag told her too late, she accepted it and asked him to remember her when. I found Alema's death to be truly poignant.

And the last time I checked Jag wasn't a Jedi.
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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:26 pm Reply with quote  
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  Nedara
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[quote="Cerrinea"]Really, Nedara, Lomi Plo had made it pretty clear that she was going to remain who she was. Remember this is the woman, creature, what have you who was trying to ignite a huge galactic war.[/spoiler]

And Vader was the guy who supported Palpatine for 2 decades. The most evil figure in the recent story of the galaxy. And he made pretty clear that he was going to remain who he was... until Luke made him change his mind.

Cerrinea wrote:
Also Raynar wasn't a Sith.


They didn't know Welk was a Sith and didn't give him a chance, either. So, what did make him different from Kyp when he destroyed Carida?

Cerrinea wrote:
And the last time I checked Jag wasn't a Jedi.


He was just the commander in a Jedi mission.


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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:28 pm Reply with quote  
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  Werehunter
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I wouldn't say they offered her redemption several times. And the few times they did, it was usually during a fight. As I said, I don't really consider that a real attempt to redeem someone. I think even one of them said something to the affect, ok now you die. Considering that they've shown they can hold Jedi against their will and help those, like Rayner and even Ben, who were joiners, there was far more they could and should have done to try and help her. It's not like she made a choice to go dark or someone who they didn't know. She was a Jedi who fought beside them several times. I remember feeling rather disappointed at that lack of effort they put into helping her. Out of all the characters they've shown influenced by the dark side, she was really the only true victim out of all of them. The rest, even Kyp, made a choice while she was controlled into it.

Oh and I too found her death to be poigant and rank it as one of the best deaths in Star Wars, mainly for the way she wished to be remembered.

And while Jag wasn't a Jedi, he was working with and being financed by the Jedi Order in his mission to hunt down Alema.


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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:52 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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They knew Welk was a Sith from back in the YKJ days and from Star by Star.

Luke started trying to help Alema back in NJO. He tried again in DNT. The Jedi Order tried when Han and Leia brought her back. Alema chose to escape and return to the Dark Nest.

By LOTF the Dark Nest had been destroyed for years. Alema was absolutely not under their influence then. Alema made the choice to seek revenge by killing all of the Solos. honestly, guys, remember the whole story; not just parts of it.
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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:03 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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Welk was known to the Jedi as a Nightsister, not a Sith. That was a retcon introduced by LOTF.


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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:05 pm Reply with quote  
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  Nedara
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Welk, just like Lomi, were Dark Jedi in Star by Star. Only in Inferno is discovered they were part of the One Sith, so, no, Luke and the others had no idea they were Sith in that moment.

Anyway, like Jaina was thinking in Revelation, would Luke have tried to save Vader if he wouldn't have been his father? I truly doubt it. Where does that leave Luke? Is he a person who always try to bring people back or just try it with those who have some kind of connection to him?


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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:18 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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It's also worth noting that the Jedi never found out that Welk and Lomi Plo were Sith. Only Alema did, and she didn't tell them before she died. And presumably they never found out since the One Sith remained secret until SW Legacy.


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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:50 pm Reply with quote  
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  Queen Padmè Skywalker
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Just gonna poke my head in here and chime in on the "Jedi killing Sith" thing: sometimes redemption isn't possible. Remember the old Bantam days, where Luke was utterly convinced that he could bring any Dark Jedi or Sith back to the Light if he just kept trying? There were instances where this really came back to bite him, as his hope for redemption kept him from eliminating a known threat. Just my thoughts.
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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:03 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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Dark Jedi/Sith: you're splitting hairs over that like it's a big difference? I'm pretty sure that Luke could sense their level of darkness. The point is that Luke and the rest knew that Lomi Plo and Welk -- and later Alema -- were not good guys. It's also not like Luke or anyone can will redemption on someone. They have to want it. Which is what Vader wanted it in the end. But look what had to happen for him to get there. Palpatine was killing his son. It took his son to bring him to redemption. It isn't like it was just any old Jedi who got Vader to that point. Remember three years earlier Luke witnessed his father kill his former master and Jedi brother.

Like Padme said, redemption isn't always possible. And I'd take pretty much anything said in Revelation with a grain of salt. It was written by Traviss.
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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:07 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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Hey, Mara Jade's ghost split hairs over whether Jacen was or wasn't a Sith at the time that she tried to kill him. I'm just sharing in her pedantry.


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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:11 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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You're kind of proving your own point here about Denning, LJD. Very Happy

You know, most everybody I know loves Abyss, but I always thought there was something off about that whole Mara in the Lake scene. It just didn't quite feel right to me.

The short scene that Golden did with Mara and Luke rang much more true.
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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:12 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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This thread has been horrifically derailed again. Whoops.


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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:15 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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Yeah we should probably make a thread about this somewhere if anyone wants to continue the discussion. Although I'm pretty bored with it. It's a discussion I've been hearing for way too long now.
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