Reboots

@Life: good point. They might be able to do without the Big 3, but they would have to have a replacement. Ben, Vestara, ...?

@LivingJediDream: I like your analogy between LOTF and Alien 3, that's a good correlation. Both took the story in a sort of dead end direction by killing off the major characters and forced both franchises to make big changes in the follow ups. Though I would argue FOTJ was a positive change, whereas the other Alien movies: Resurrection and the AvP films, were subpar.
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Master Joined: 22 Dec 2010 Posts: 1796 Location: Carcosa

Conviction kind of showed me that no matter how entertaining and well written a novel is (and I think Millennium Falcon did the same thing), I'm just not going to enjoy it all that much because I think the setting is garbage now. The characters are just boring and uninteresting and there's no growth at all by any of the pre-existing characters, even Ben. The only characters that have any sort of growth are the newly introduced characters (I'm including Allana as newly introduced as far as being a character in the story), and that's not even really growth but just establishing the character. We learn new things about the character because we don't know anything... Vestara's status as a Sith wasn't well established before her shift, and was really one dimensional. We're basically told she's a Sith, and use our imaginations as to what type of person she is.

And like I said, probably in a different thread, I read Star Wars for fun escapism. I'm not necessarily against darker stories like the NJO series, but if they're going to make them dark, there needs to be a point to it and there needs to be depth to the story to justify that.

And I think the reason why I seek reboots for franchises, besides just Star Wars, is because I'm nostalgic for their "glory days" and I think they've since then been pretty much driven into the ground, and the entertainment value I get out of them is minimal if any. So maybe I am just looking for a new source of entertainment and I'm at the end of the road for Star Wars. I think it's unsalvageable at this point for me. I guess it depends upon what you hope to get out of reading Star Wars, but I feel as if they've just made the post-NJO setting so bleak that fun escapism just doesn't function in the setting any longer for me.

Edit: And I think this bleakness sort of permeates all Expanded Universe, as a consequence of the fact that the Jedi vs Sith conflict has completely replaced the New Republic vs Imperial Remnant conflict that dominated the 90s EU, and now Jedi vs Sith is even more ubiquitous than NR vs IR was. Apart from the whole JINO thing, I think the less recognized issue with post-NJO is that the writers felt compelled to go back to the Sith... again. And SW Legacy has made it something that won't go away, either. If people like reading Jedi vs Sith ad nauseam, I suppose that's alright, but I don't find it particularly intriguing because it lacks any sort of depth because the writers use it as an excuse to make the conflict black and white -- despite ironically making a Sith more moral than Luke is in LOTF. But in FOTJ now the Sith are one dimensional evil villains. Meh.

But like I said in the chatbox last night, my opinions here seem to be dubious, and since most people don't like the idea of a reboot I'll try not to talk about it anymore... I'll just re-read Zahn and Stackpole, starting with Sidetrip!

I agree that Vestara needs fleshing out but I think character development under Del Rey has improved substantially since Bantam. The Big 3 alone were all over the place. In one book Luke is still learning the ways of the Force, in the next he is an omniscient sage.

I also disagree that Jedi vs. Sith makes every conflict black and white. Look at the books Stover or Kemp write. Even FotJ. Vestara was raised a Sith, she didn't choose it so there has been some grey areas at least as far as Vestara is concerned in FotJ.
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Where sky and water meet,
Where the waves grow sweet,
Doubt not, Reepicheep,
To find all you seek,
There is the utter east.

Master Joined: 22 Dec 2010 Posts: 1796 Location: Carcosa

Traitor didn't have Sith but it definitley had the dark side. All of his books approach good and evil from a different angle. I don't know if I'd call the Vong more three dimensional. They're both on par in my opinion.
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Where sky and water meet,
Where the waves grow sweet,
Doubt not, Reepicheep,
To find all you seek,
There is the utter east.

Master Joined: 22 Dec 2010 Posts: 1796 Location: Carcosa

I think Nom Anor and Tsavong Lah are much better villains than anything we've seen since. And Traitor wasn't a black and white conflict, and it was entirely an internal conflict, which is what I'm saying we need. It had depth to it.

I tend to agree with Jedi. Although the Lost Tribe are good enough, the Vong were much more interesting and dynamic villains.
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So this is how liberty dies....with thunderous applause.

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The world is a mess and I just need to rule it.

Master Joined: 22 Dec 2010 Posts: 1796 Location: Carcosa

The problem with the Lost Tribe, and it's not a problem inherent to Sith villains, is that they have nothing to distinguish themselves from one another. Knight Errant demonstrates that you can have Sith that are in stark contrast to one another in characterization and motives. As far as we know, the only motive anyone in the Lost Tribe has is that they're trying to advance themselves. They're entirely cookie cutter, and you could swap any Lost Tribe character for any other and it wouldn't affect the story at all.

The only exception is Vestara, and that's because she's the new protagonist that they're actively trying to develop as a character.

Knight Joined: 08 Apr 2011 Posts: 299

The flaw I see in the argument in favor of a reboot, is that rebooting things won't solve any of it. Yes they've made some mistakes and I too am sad that direction they took several characters. And while a reboot will 'fix' those changes, but it will also make most of those characters not exist anymore. I don't see much advantage in that. And what's the point of a reboot, if they just retell the same stories with the same characters with minor tweaks.

The rest of the complaints also won't be fixed with a reboot. For those that think Luke, Leia and Han are taking too much time away from other characters or vice versa, that could still happen after a reboot. Those that don't like the way they are writing the stories, with the collaborative writing, why would a reboot fix that. Those that don't like the Sith/Jedi thing, I don't see that going away with a reboot either.

I would rather see them continue to move forward and fix the problems they have in their current universe. As I've said in other threads, there are more then enough characters ready to step up and will the void left by the characters who have been killed. As for those who like Luke and company, they can still tell stories about them. Though I'd rather them set it in the 'past' rather then the 'present'.

Master Joined: 22 Dec 2010 Posts: 1796 Location: Carcosa

Knight Joined: 08 Apr 2011 Posts: 299

Again I would ask, what's the point of a reboot if they are just going to use the exact same characters. As Zahn is doing now, they can still tell stories with those characters that just take place in earlier times.

In fact there are a ton of stories that can be told in those times. I just re-read Zahn's original SW trilogy and noticed that they made mention of their being 12 Grand Admirals. So why not tell stories about the Rebellion hunting them down, the only created character that might be one of them is Warlord Zsinj. And I say that because Zahn had in his book that Grand Admirals earned the right to be called Warlord and Zsinj was certainly smart enough to be one.

Or tell the story of Mara joining Karrade's organization, or what Mara was doing between Endor and her hooking up with Karrade. Tell the stories with Jacen that take place between New Jedi Order and when he starts his five year journey, there at least several months that such stories could take place in. Maybe him and Jania hunting down some Vong that refuse to stand down or taking on some pirate group that rose in the chaos of the war's aftermath. Or tell stories of Thrawn in the unknown regions creating the Empire of the Hand.

I just see a reboot as a waste that will do little to bring in new readers but might push away older ones. To bring in new readers, all they need to do is start telling better stories and create a bigger buzz about the books. Run commerials of their novels during the Clone War cartoon or place ads in the video games extra section.

Master Joined: 22 Dec 2010 Posts: 1796 Location: Carcosa

Alright, an elaboration on my initial post in the thread about why I think there needs to be a reboot. Note I originally wrote this in a different context, so if part of it doesn't make sense, whoops. Also maybe I'm repeating myself?

My impetus behind the desire to see a reboot is the feeling that, once Han, Luke, and Leia are done as characters, the EU is dead.

From Heir to the Empire in 1991 until now, there have ALWAYS been stories about Han, Luke, and Leia. That's the primary draw of the Expanded Universe. That's what I've read for twenty years, and why I kept coming back. Through those twenty years, I've had brief periods where I stopped reading the EU completely, and it was when I was dissatisfied with the Han, Luke, and Leia stories, and my interest in Star Wars as a whole completely waned: 1999, with Vector Prime, which I thought was a ridiculously boring novel, resulted in my not reading any Star Wars until 2002. I didn't know Chewbacca died until 2002, because I didn't even get there in VP because I quit it.

Then between 2006 and 2008 with LOTF, I completely quit Star Wars because of that series. In 2008, I came back and read Exile through Revelation (and only because they were given to me a large gift), and quit again, and didn't read Invincible, and honestly had no interest in Outcast, but ended up reading it because it was at my library and I didn't need to spend money on it.

So while we've had stuff like the X-Wing series, the Republic Commando series, SW Legacy, KOTOR, etc., my thought is that the core demographic of EU readers are readers because of Han, Luke, and Leia, and that when those stories go away, so will a great deal of readers. Otherwise, why haven't we seen stories not involving those characters with the same sort of longevity that their stories have?

I also truly believe that there's something of a silent majority of readers that are buying the Han, Luke, and Leia books that aren't buying other books or posting on Star Wars forums, based upon the success of those books in terms of sales compared to others as far as the bestsellers lists go.

So while I think that a lot of the general problems with the Expanded Universe can be fixed without rebooting it, I don't think that for a lot of readers it's going to matter. And I think the process of correcting the problems will take time, because consider the new characters introduced by Del Rey compared to the new characters introduced by Bantam. I think Jag Fel is the only one comparable in terms of staying power and characterization, and I never really liked him... to me he was Captain Cardboard in the NJO. And the transition from the Big 3 to whomever succeeds them is going to be rough, because they completely squandered what NJO set up, and as it is, I don't think Ben, Jaina, Vestara, and Allana or whomever else it will be has really been set up all that well that if after FOTJ they released a trilogy starring any of them, that it would be particularly successful.

I foresee things in the EU getting a lot worse before they get better, if it doesn't completely fail.

And I imagine that a lot of people here will take a different view, because maybe when they started reading the EU was already prolific in terms of various stories set across the entire gamut of the Star Wars universe and that sort of stuff appeals to them, but when I personally think of so-called "old readers," I'm thinking in terms of people that have been reading since the 90s when the focus was almost exclusively on Han, Luke, and Leia, with the only diversions being X-Wing, Tales of the Jedi, and Crimson Empire. I guess what it boils down to is whether the majority of Expanded Universe readership are people that have been around since the 90s or people that came around in the past decade. Personally, I'm inclined to believe the former, because I think the EU is generally appealing toward older fans that grew up with the OT.

Knight Joined: 08 Apr 2011 Posts: 299

For the record, I started reading Star Wars novel when Heir to the Empire first came out.

You claim you think that Han, Luke, and Leia are what's drawing the readers. Yet you also claim that you stopped reading several times in the past ten years. However Han, Luke and Leia were major players in all those stories. So much that I think their inclusion in some of the books, to the extent that they were used, actually hurt the larger story.

Outside of the Clone War books, every single book that has come out in the past decade have heavily focused on those three. Unless you're complaint is about the Clone War books, which I admit I never read, I don't see that argument holding much weight. I think the true issue you have, is that the book of the past decade haven't been as good as many of the earlier books. That's a whole another issue and one that again likely won't be fixed with a reboot.

And I agree that they haven't set up the newer characters well enough to carry the series forward. But I place the blame on focusing too much on Han, Luke and Leia. At times there is promise for the new characters, but then they bring those three back and have them take over and save the day. I'm actually shocked they had Jania and not Luke be the one to kill Jacen, I was certain that they would have Luke do it.

On another one of your points, I remember almost quitting reading in the 90's because I was sick of too much of those three. I still loved the characters, but the X-wing books showed me that they didn't need to focus so much on them. And while I do wish the newer characters would have been developed better, I am happy that they at least are creating more and more characters that others can pick up in later books. In the 90's it seemed that nothing in the Star Wars Universe could be solved without those three, which really didn't work with Leia as the Head of State.

Master Joined: 22 Dec 2010 Posts: 1796 Location: Carcosa

The reason I quit was because the stories featuring those three were unappealing to me, and I didn't care for stories not involving them. I'll probably quit reading when they aren't featured in stories anymore, except to pick up hypothetical one-offs like Tatooine Ghost, Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor, or Choices of One.

The problem with stories not featuring them is that they won't commit to them. You don't see any sort of series have the longevity that the one featuring the Big 3 has had. We haven't followed any characters nearly as much. Why not? Do they not sell well? That's what I think is the problem, otherwise I don't see why Del Rey wouldn't be keen to establish something they continue indefinitely with similar popularity.

And there are a lot of books that came out in the past decade not featuring the Big 3: The Force Unleashed, Deathtroopers (although it has Han), Red Harvest, Fatal Alliance, The Force Unleashed 2, Path of Destruction, Rule of Two, Dynasty of Evil, Deceived, Crosscurrent...

I don't understand why Del Rey hasn't attempted to create some sort of series (like X-Wing?) that has staying power with new characters, unless the sales of those books indicate that it wouldn't be successful. And if the Big 3 series have been carrying the financial weight, what is the EU going to do when they're no longer feasible?

Go back and publish some nine book series set between the NJO and Dark Nest? Or between Dark Nest and LOTF? I doubt it.

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