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Gender Issues
 PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:03 am Reply with quote  
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  Dancelittleewok
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A thread where men and women can discuss any relevant gender issues, including but not limited to feminism and sexism. Sometimes, when we discuss these topics, terminology can be subjective and confusing. To facilitate a good discussion, I suggest we use these definitions for feminism and and sexism. (Also, no person is the spokesperson for the entire gender.)

Sexism:
noun
1.
attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles.
2.
discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities; especially, such discrimination directed against women.

Feminism:

fem·i·nism   
noun
1.
the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.
2.
( sometimes initial capital letter ) an organized movement for the attainment of such rights for women.
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Last edited by Dancelittleewok on Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:12 pm; edited 1 time in total


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 PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:04 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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As the resident knight and chivalry enthusiast, let me say something about practices like holding a door open for a lady.

There is a type of chivalric thinking that places women on a pedastal as being excellent in beauty and virtue (especially when compared with men). Ideally, a knight serves his lady out of reverence for her. This is why knights kneel before ladies in portraits. So... in some contexts, having a door held open for you is not meant to signify that women are weak, but that they are worthy of reverence and service. If this attitude is "sexist", it is sexist in women's favour.


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 PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:53 pm Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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Cerrinea wrote:
it's not the discriminators who get to decide what discrimination is, but the one's who are discriminated against.


And who gets to decide who is being discriminated against? Since it seems purely relative, does anything count as discrimination?

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Last edited by Autobon on Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:14 pm; edited 1 time in total


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 PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:34 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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It's not that hard to figure out.

dis·crim·i·na·tion/disˌkriməˈnāSHən/
Noun:

The unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, esp. on the grounds of race, age, or sex.
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 PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:24 pm Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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Cerrinea wrote:
*gives definition of the word 'discrimination'*


Definitions as to what counts as discrimination can vary widely. For example: if I decide never to let Dad drive my car, and he thinks its because I think he's old - am I discriminating against him on the basis of age? Should I even care that he feels discriminated against?

There could be any number of reasons for someone to think themselves a victim of discrimination, so at what point do we draw a line? Your definition seems incredibly fickle to me.


Last edited by Autobon on Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:59 pm; edited 1 time in total


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 PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:30 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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That's the first time I've ever heard a dictionary called fickle.
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 PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:32 pm Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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Cerrinea wrote:
That's the first time I've ever heard a dictionary called fickle.


For emphasis: I am asking what COUNTS as discrimination - not what the word itself means. Under your standards, it seems anyone could be a victim of whatever they personally find discriminatory, whether or not common sense dictates it so.

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 PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:39 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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I'm not trying to be flippant here, but idk how more clear cut of a definition you could get. If you can't understand it from that definition, then idk what to tell you.
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 PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:48 pm Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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I once had a woman run out in the street in front of me and then call me racist when I had to slam on the brakes and almost hit her. Sometimes people are just looking to be victims, but with the gender issues thing I'll state that things still aren't equal for women in America. Like...like at all. There are differences between the sexes, but overall some people read into things intentions that aren't there and I think that is what Autobon is trying to say.

However...

Cerrinea is also correct in saying that its up to those being discriminated against. Some are just looking to be a victim in everything (intentionally) but many really do feel discriminated against from actions that may not be intentional but are nevertheless there.

That being said I think the equality thing is frustrating. I've been yelled at for things that weren't intentional (i.e. holding doors, helping carry stuff, things like that) but when I don't do it again I get called things like a "piggish male" or a "jerk" for not doing those things. I worked construction for quite awhile, never saw a woman working out in the field with us even though they can have the job if they want it. I try not to use cliches or I try to get out of thoughts like "only men like beer" or whatever because those are indeed sexist ideas and while they aren't really meant as offensive they come off that way, and its especially degrading. I'm only partially Caucasian so every time I hear racist Mexican jokes it gets under my skin because that's where the rest of my ancestry lies. But I have to take it with a grain of salt. If I got all bent out of shape about it then it wouldn't bother me, their racism has literally no affect on how I affect my life.

And this is why I think we need to cut out the idea of discrimination in this thread. Its a word that can be used to compare racial and gender issues but they are completely different. I think getting bent out of shape over having a door held for you is ridiculous, but the fact that women make beyond less than men in America is a big deal and its a separate deal from racism so the distinction needs to be left free and clear, with no ties to anything else. Racism is serious, just as this is, but we need to keep the idea of discrimination specific only to gender here. I noticed this while reading the conversation that currently exists and I just wanted to throw this out there. I see this becoming another locked thread because people believe what they believe and won't change that and everyone gets all offended and no decent discussion happens, just fights, so I'm trying to help avoid that right from the get-go.
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 PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:12 pm Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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Caedus_16 wrote:
I once had a woman run out in the street in front of me and then call me racist when I had to slam on the brakes and almost hit her... overall some people read into things intentions that aren't there and I think that is what Autobon is trying to say.


Yes, you seem to get my point quite clearly. Some people, not all, feel discriminated against for the smallest or nonexistent reasons. My question was - do they count as the ones being discriminated against in Cerrinea's example? More specifically, should we use the word "discriminated" in that context?

Now that I reread her original post (from the other thread) it seems as though I got confused at her wording. She uses the words "discriminators" and "discriminated against," (a strong stance) but it seems as though her actual point was that everyone has a right to interpret behaviors directed at them - whether those are really discriminatory or not (a neutral stance). I certainly agree with the latter point. Feel free to correct me on this one Cerrinea, if you feel I am misrepresenting your statement.

Caedus_16 wrote:
the fact that women make beyond less than men in America is a big deal


Good topic, especially with the whole "war on women" drama from the election. I think pay does need to be equal, but have we considered the circumstances behind the numbers? For example, why do men tend to gravitate towards areas like technology, whereas women do not? Is it because men and women (in general) find different areas more interesting, or is it that sexism is alive and well?

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 PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:16 pm Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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Autobon wrote:
or is there perhaps sexism acting behind the scenes?


I think it is beyond sexism acting behind the scenes. The pay is lower and it, like construction or concrete or trenching, is a male dominated field. Women sometimes don't bother because they feel they won't be accepted or successful, and due to the anti-woman bias in those areas they are sometimes not wrong.
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 PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:59 am Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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Sounds like in this case discrimination can be swapped out with offended.

But what of those who get offended by people who find THEM offensive? Are not they offended too? Who's offendedness takes precedence? Same with the discrimination- when it's blatant it's obvious, but when it's up to the person feeling discriminated against to make the call.... I too have to question then when someone is just crying wolf at a set of similar circumstances.

I mean I'm the only male at my work- and I get all the heavy lifting, all the late night trash runs and any other job deemed "the man's job" or in need of "man muscles" But I just figure that's how they want it. Gets them out of the heavy work, but then when it comes to equal rights- should not they too be doing all the same work?

I'm not one to complain, I enjoy the work, but is there not some form of reverse discrimination at work there? And is it ok as long as I am ok with it? And what then if say my wife gets bent about my being "taken advantage of for my gender"

I too have to ponder where is the line?
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 PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:54 am Reply with quote  
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  Taral-DLOS
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Has anyone ever seen this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e1wo8f8mT4

It's a Public Service Announcement from the mid-to-late 60s about Equal Pay For Equal Work. The law that required women to receive equal pay as men for doing the same job had been in force for a number of years, but was poorly enforced, and a lot of companies weren't doing it.

Cut to this PSA about Batman! Apparently Batgirl doesn't get the same amount of money as Robin, despite doing the same thing.

The best part of it seems to be that she's willing to let Batman die in order to get her point across. Hell hath no fury, am I right? :D
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 PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:14 am Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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FYI: Meditation Grove rules have been updated. Make sure to read them over before posting.

Link: Update Meditation Grove Rules
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 PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:22 am Reply with quote  
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  Darth_Henning
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Caedus_16 wrote:
...but the fact that women make beyond less than men in America is a big deal ....


This one always interests me.

Generally if you look at average pay for a woman vs. a man working full time over the course of a year, the difference is around 23% less on average. Yet, if you reduce that to a difference in weekly earnings, it drops to about 18% less. This is more accurately reflective of the pay difference seen because on average women tend to take slightly more time off that accumulates over the year.

18% is still a lot though right?

Well, depending on what study you look at, the average length of work week for women is 52 hours vs 58 hours for men. That's a roughly 10% difference. If you want to look at it by day, another study suggests that its 7.75 hours (women) to 8.14 hours (men). That's closer to a 5% difference. Lets average that out at 7%. (statistics refer to those with business degrees)

So that still leaves an 11% difference in pay.

Add to that that men work an average of 2.15 hours overtime weekly, compared to 1.65 hours for women. Many offices pay double for overtime hours (though not all), further decreasing the gap. (again, statistics refer to those with business degrees)

A large portion of that can be explained by seniority at a position. Women tend to take more time off than men. 40% of women tend to take off 6 months + during their working lives, compared to 10% of men (NOTE: this excludes maternity and paternity leaves). While this certainly does not apply to all women, it does skew the average downwards, accounting for a portion of the remaining gap.

When you ad in maternity leave, this accounts for an even larger proportion of the difference.

It is also worth noting that while women in the top quarter of their class have a higher GPA than men in the top quarter of their class, on the whole, women who graduate college have a lower average GPA. This difference may also explain a portion of the wage gap, but is harder to quantify.




Does that completely account for the wage gap? Probably not. With all those factors included, most studies still suggest that it is about a 5% wage gap on average.

Yes, that's definitely an issue that needs to be corrected, but its not nearly as bad as is often suggested. Like many things, people look at a specific raw number (total pay difference), yet fail to look at anything underneath it.


One study that I read a few years back, but can't find currently actually found that when adjusted for seniority (with the same company), years worked (total), hours worked, and education/GPA, a little over 50% of companies payed women less than men (averaging 93% of the value), around 30% payed women roughly the same as men (98%-102%) and between 15 and 20% payed women more than men (averaging 110% - these were usually health care and CEO positions interestingly enough).

Now an open question to everyone else, are those 20% of companies guilty of reverse sexism? Or is that not an issue?




Similarly, the US population is 49.2% male, yet nationally, university enrollment is 43.6% male. Again, reverse sexism? or a non-issue?













I would just like to note that I strongly support equal pay. But only when adjusted for years and time worked in a job.


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