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The Wrath of Darth Maul
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 PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:57 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Looks like I'm getting involved anyway.

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This is why continuity is stupid.


To me, lack of continuity shows apathy. I never read fanfiction because I know it isn't part of canon and never will be. Part of the thing that attracted me to the EU (silly me) was how coherent everything seemed.
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 PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:14 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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Reepicheep wrote:
Looks like I'm getting involved anyway.

Quote:
This is why continuity is stupid.


To me, lack of continuity shows apathy. I never read fanfiction because I know it isn't part of canon and never will be. Part of the thing that attracted me to the EU (silly me) was how coherent everything seemed.


Fans would rather read garbage stories with "continuity" than good stories outside of "continuity."

The fan emphasis on continuity over storytelling is perfectly illustrated by Maul. His origin from Iridonia is absolutely insignificant to any story or the character. His origin from Dathomir and consequential tie to Savage Opress and his ties to the Nightsisters and Ventress are absolutely significant if not essential. But no, how dare they ignore an insignificant, throwaway sentence in a non-narrative "essential guide" in writing their story.


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 PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:17 pm Reply with quote  
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  DannikJerriko
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Crash Override wrote:
Reepicheep wrote:
Looks like I'm getting involved anyway.

Quote:
This is why continuity is stupid.


To me, lack of continuity shows apathy. I never read fanfiction because I know it isn't part of canon and never will be. Part of the thing that attracted me to the EU (silly me) was how coherent everything seemed.


Fans would rather read garbage stories with "continuity" than good stories outside of "continuity."

The fan emphasis on continuity over storytelling is perfectly illustrated by Maul. His origin from Iridonia is absolutely insignificant to any story or the character. His origin from Dathomir and consequential tie to Savage Opress and his ties to the Nightsisters and Ventress are absolutely significant if not essential. But no, how dare they ignore an insignificant, throwaway sentence in a non-narrative "essential guide" in writing their story.


I think fans would prefer good stories with continuity.
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 PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:20 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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Fans place higher priority on pseudo-continuity than on quality. Would you prefer FOTJ or a new continuity sequel trilogy of equal quality to the Thrawn trilogy? I'm sure most people would choose the meh quality we are getting over high quality stories that are not in this continuity.


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 PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:21 pm Reply with quote  
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  Mace Windu
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Poor Obi-Wan's accomplishment is being ******* on with this garbage.


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 PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:43 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Crash Override wrote:
Reepicheep wrote:
Looks like I'm getting involved anyway.

Quote:
This is why continuity is stupid.


To me, lack of continuity shows apathy. I never read fanfiction because I know it isn't part of canon and never will be. Part of the thing that attracted me to the EU (silly me) was how coherent everything seemed.


Fans would rather read garbage stories with "continuity" than good stories outside of "continuity."

The fan emphasis on continuity over storytelling is perfectly illustrated by Maul. His origin from Iridonia is absolutely insignificant to any story or the character. His origin from Dathomir and consequential tie to Savage Opress and his ties to the Nightsisters and Ventress are absolutely significant if not essential. But no, how dare they ignore an insignificant, throwaway sentence in a non-narrative "essential guide" in writing their story.

Within reason, I can handle retcons (e.g. Darth Maul being from Dathomiri isn't something I mind too much), but it's sloppy. And I highly doubt the only way to avoid 'garbage stories' is by messing up continuity.
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 PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:55 am Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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Reepicheep wrote:
Within reason, I can handle retcons (e.g. Darth Maul being from Dathomiri isn't something I mind too much), but it's sloppy. And I highly doubt the only way to avoid 'garbage stories' is by messing up continuity.


No, but in this case it's simply showcasing priorities. People seem to be saying that they would rather the Savage Opress story arc -- and by extension future story arcs involving that character and Darth Maul -- to not exist because it was established in an essential guide that Darth Maul is from Iridonia. This is in spite of Darth Maul being from Iridonia not being a significant fact in any pre-existing story, but simply because it's "in continuity" by virtue of having been mentioned in a single sentence.

I'm sure people would attempt to argue that changing Maul's birthplace for the story is unnecessary, but it was necessary because all the involved parties in the story are intricately connected because of their origin on Dathomir.

I don't get how people can place such an extreme emphasis on continuity so that its importance outstrips everything else including the quality or existence of stories. I think my prior analogy is a fitting one because I have no doubt that if given a choice between Legacy of the Force and Fate of the Jedi or a trilogy or multibook series of the highest quality but outside of existing continuity, they'd settle for the lesser quality stories in-continuity. I know it's not an either/or situation in real life, but that without a doubt most people would settle for lesser quality for continuity baffles me.


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 PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:53 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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I can't say I've heard a lot of people saying that on here. I have heard people saying that they like the Savage Oppress arc, but dislike, quite vehemently, the thought of Maul coming back. And I don't really think that's a continuity question, but one of decent storytelling. For him to have survived that fall stretches credulity even in the Star Wars galaxy.

But as for the Iridonia/Dathomir question, from a psychological stand-point it makes perfect sense why people are so incensed by a little thing. For emotions like fear and anger, there are triggers that are hardwired into us - some of them are what we'd call animal instinct, but others are learned and individual to the person. These are built often on just one incident, but they stay and are very difficult to overcome. Now, we assign certain triggers for that memory, and when we tick off those on that list (this is done without conscious thought) we place it into that category, and thus become more irritated than would be deemed appropriate. So it's not just the Iridonia incident, but all those other times, too.
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 PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:00 am Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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Crash Override wrote:
Reepicheep wrote:
Within reason, I can handle retcons (e.g. Darth Maul being from Dathomiri isn't something I mind too much), but it's sloppy. And I highly doubt the only way to avoid 'garbage stories' is by messing up continuity.


No, but in this case it's simply showcasing priorities. People seem to be saying that they would rather the Savage Opress story arc -- and by extension future story arcs involving that character and Darth Maul -- to not exist because it was established in an essential guide that Darth Maul is from Iridonia. This is in spite of Darth Maul being from Iridonia not being a significant fact in any pre-existing story, but simply because it's "in continuity" by virtue of having been mentioned in a single sentence.

I'm sure people would attempt to argue that changing Maul's birthplace for the story is unnecessary, but it was necessary because all the involved parties in the story are intricately connected because of their origin on Dathomir.

I don't get how people can place such an extreme emphasis on continuity so that its importance outstrips everything else including the quality or existence of stories. I think my prior analogy is a fitting one because I have no doubt that if given a choice between Legacy of the Force and Fate of the Jedi or a trilogy or multibook series of the highest quality but outside of existing continuity, they'd settle for the lesser quality stories in-continuity. I know it's not an either/or situation in real life, but that without a doubt most people would settle for lesser quality for continuity baffles me.


I think the baffling part is not getting both. Why couldn't our EU have been as approved at TCW. That kind of thing- but I don't think we can say even a majority wants one of the other. Fandom is like a stained glass multiple peices with different backgrounds coming together to see that it makes up a big beautiful picture. I think the case with Maul is you see something that has been replaced and in it's place the color has changed. See I recall all my first word Maul was from Irodia was from Insider Magazine when I got my Fan Club Letter with GLs signature on it and it came with a bunch of stickers one had Maul on it saying Irodian. All they need to do is find a way to put Maul on Irodia at a time consistent with the BELIEF he was there.

But as a fan of LotF's end of the saga I'd say you're "no doubt" in this case is un just- I rarely feel the love of this era or it's continuity from the majority of Fans. I think you're taking the reaction to a reboot and applying it perhaps?

Where as I would love that for we could then get an EU that is in line with GL- ie an EU that he won't constantly cause RETCONS for.

And since I like retcons to a degree I'd still want the old EU's continuity as an "Ultimate Universe" kind of thing like Marvel did it.

But I think as always the lack of detail behind Maul allows us fans to blow the situation up. In the end I'll be not be shocked if it's not what we think.

I'm not even convinced Maul and Savage are close in age. I think Maul has a twin, but I'm not so sure it's Savage- Savage always seems Mauls age in Ep 1 to me and it's after Ep 2 Makes me think Savage is a younger Sibling.

The issue I have with the "amnesia" is that it once more hampers Palpatine's "all knowing" status. We either believe he knew and had a alt plan for Maul, or that he didn't know and isn't as all seeing as he's always portrayed.
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 PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:24 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Actually, has it ever been stated that Maul himself didn't come from Iridonia? It isn't stretching it to say there are Zabraks on multiple planets. Look at Humans.

Even if Maul is now Dathomirian, that in itself doesn't bother me too much. It's slightly annoying, but I can easily shrug it off. What did bother me with the arc was that it implied that the only males on Dathomir are Zabraks. This impacts a lot more than one Essential Chronology.
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 PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:01 pm Reply with quote  
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  Arawn_Fenn
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Crash Override wrote:
Darth Maul was raised by Palpatine, and not on Iridonia.

If people are really upset over George Lucas contradicting a single sentence in the New Essential Chronology, the result of which is... nothing, I don't recommend that they read the original Essential Chronology which is now out of print.

I don't really see much use for the "sourcebooks" that don't have any narrative.


It was also stated in Shadow Hunter.


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 PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:12 pm Reply with quote  
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  GrandMaster
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How would people feel if Maul came back as a clone - he still died in Episode I, but there is another one out there?
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 PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:16 pm Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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Reepicheep wrote:
Actually, has it ever been stated that Maul himself didn't come from Iridonia? It isn't stretching it to say there are Zabraks on multiple planets. Look at Humans.


Yes and no. Where I read it one could still say "we didn't see him BORN... he could have just came off the cruiser". as the retcon from Insider showed.

Reepicheep wrote:
Even if Maul is now Dathomirian, that in itself doesn't bother me too much. It's slightly annoying, but I can easily shrug it off. What did bother me with the arc was that it implied that the only males on Dathomir are Zabraks. This impacts a lot more than one Essential Chronology.


TCW almost leaves you with a sense that the Dathomiri are a mixed race almost Wink
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 PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:21 pm Reply with quote  
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  Arawn_Fenn
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GrandMaster wrote:
How would people feel if Maul came back as a clone - he still died in Episode I, but there is another one out there?


My first vote would have been "Maul does not come back". However, I would prefer a clone over what we're getting, even though I used to believe the franchise should stay away from the cloning of Force-sensitives due to the fact that Palpatine didn't clone Vader. From TFU 2's databank entries, it seems that the production of a "stable" ( non-aberrant ) clone of a Force-sensitive can be a difficult process even later in the timeline.


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 PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:40 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth_Henning
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Crash Override wrote:
...

The fan emphasis on continuity over storytelling is perfectly illustrated by Maul. His origin from Iridonia is absolutely insignificant to any story or the character. His origin from Dathomir and consequential tie to Savage Opress and his ties to the Nightsisters and Ventress are absolutely significant if not essential....


If he's raised basically from infancy by Palpatine, how is it 'essential' that he's from Dathomere? He doesn't have to be from there just to be related to, or known to the Zabraks/Nightsisters.

Heck, go back a couple pages. I did 20 seconds of mental gymnastics to explain how he could still be from Iridonia and the others from Dathomere (Palpy relocated the force-strong family from Iridonia (where he got maul) to Dathomere for the Night Sisters to train for him, so he had a pool to draw from, and where Oppress was then born).

I just think that the writers who are getting PAID to do this should put the same minimal level of effort into making things fit. To not is bluntly lazy.

Crash Override wrote:
Fans place higher priority on pseudo-continuity than on quality. Would you prefer FOTJ or a new continuity sequel trilogy of equal quality to the Thrawn trilogy? I'm sure most people would choose the meh quality we are getting over high quality stories that are not in this continuity.


Neither. I'd like a set of books of equal quality to the Thrawn trilogy that fits in continuity.

Is that really too much to ask?


Crash Override wrote:
No, but in this case it's simply showcasing priorities. People seem to be saying that they would rather the Savage Opress story arc -- and by extension future story arcs involving that character and Darth Maul -- to not exist because it was established in an essential guide that Darth Maul is from Iridonia.


We're not saying that we'd rather they not exist, just that they take the 30-60 seconds of work it would require not to change things that do not need to be changed, and put in a tiny bit of effort in order to fit things with what already exists.

Crash Override wrote:

I'm sure people would attempt to argue that changing Maul's birthplace for the story is unnecessary, but it was necessary because all the involved parties in the story are intricately connected because of their origin on Dathomir.


Again, see my above comment. Its quite easy NOT to change the birth-places of either, and STILL have the same story. Not exactly a complicated piece of work.


Crash Override wrote:

I don't get how people can place such an extreme emphasis on continuity so that its importance outstrips everything else including the quality or existence of stories. ....


Just because something fits in Continuity does not mean it is automatically of lower quality. And just because something is of good quality does not mean it has to be outside continuity. Please stop assuming they're mutually exclusive.


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