Log in to check your private messages
The Wrath of Darth Maul
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The EUCantina Forums Forum Index » The Expanded Universe: Literature & Media View previous topic :: View next topic  
 PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:13 am Reply with quote  
Message
  Darth Skuldren
Moderator
Moderator

Joined: 04 Feb 2008
Posts: 6488
Location: Missouri

So on one hand, Darth Maul's continuity is being rewritten for the sake of better storytelling. I won't argue having Maul back could provide for some very fun storytelling. However, how does the ties with Ventress, Opress, and Dathomiri witches improve the story?

On it's own, I liked the Dathomiri witches. I liked Ventress. Making her a Dathomiri witch, which contradicted canon, did not do anything for me. Having her be a witch was not a plus from my view point. It didn't seem important other than a convenient way to bring the witches into the show.

For me, Opress was not a character I really liked. He seemed like a dumb guy who was constantly getting duped by people. Having him be tied to the Dathomiri witches didn't make him any cooler in my eyes. However, having him be Maul's brother did make him more interesting. I'm hoping they can do something with that, since they haven't yet.

Now, making Maul a witch seems like a non-essential addition since Palpatine supposedly raised him since he was a child (perhaps Darth Plagueis will illuminate this time period). But the idea seems to be that someone wanted to play with Maul so they made Opress which in my eyes was a bad copy of Maul. That idea then blossomed into "hey, let's just bring back Maul!" So now Maul is back. It could be good storytelling, we'll just have to wait and see.

But as of yet, I have not seen how the contradictions to continuity in TCW have improved storytelling. There have been a lot, so I'm probably missing some I don't care about, but in particular the change of Ryloth being a tidal locked planet with a burning, sun scorched surface, the Mandos being splintered with peaceful people and deathwatch on the moon, and Even Piell. Now I'm willing to look the other way on Piell because that's the one instance of breaking continuity that did provide some really good storytelling.
_________________

"I believe toys resonate with us as humans, we can hold them them, it's tactile, real! They are totems for our extended beliefs and imaginations. A fetish for ideas that hold as much interest and passion as old religious relics for some. We display them in our homes. They show who we are. They are signals for similar thinking people. A way we connect with each other...and I guess thats why I do toys. That connection." -Ashley Wood


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

 PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:46 am Reply with quote  
Message
  Arawn_Fenn
Knight
Knight

Joined: 07 Apr 2011
Posts: 217
Location: Ekkaia

Darth Skuldren wrote:
But as of yet, I have not seen how the contradictions to continuity in TCW have improved storytelling.


They have not. "Improved storytelling" is nothing more than a transparent excuse. If they can't tell a good story without pulling crap like bringing Maul back, their "storytelling" is at a low ebb.


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 2:58 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Crash Override
Master
Master

Joined: 22 Dec 2010
Posts: 1962

Just did a search of my e-book of Shadow Hunter and didn't find Iridonia mentioned once. I looked on Wookieepedia's history for the Darth Maul page and the only source it gives for his origin on Iridonia is the New Essential Guide to Characters. I suspect that if, for whatever reason, my search isn't working properly, or his homeworld is mentioned in Saboteur or something, it's done via Maul's thoughts. Which then makes it the domain of character fallibility. There seems to be an expectation that if a character says or thinks something that it is 100% incontrovertible fact, which I don't really get. But then maybe that's because these "essential guides" take that information and present it as such.

Asajj Ventress' backstory wasn't contradicted at all. The episode rather painstakingly included her existing backstory. Unless any sort of addition of information is to be considered a "contradiction."


Last edited by Crash Override on Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:07 pm; edited 1 time in total


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 2:58 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Reepicheep
Master
Master

Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 6832
Location: Sailing into the unknown

Darth Skuldren wrote:
But as of yet, I have not seen how the contradictions to continuity in TCW have improved storytelling.

Very much agreed.
_________________

Where sky and water meet,
Where the waves grow sweet,
Doubt not, Reepicheep,
To find all you seek,
There is the utter east.


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

 PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:00 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Crash Override
Master
Master

Joined: 22 Dec 2010
Posts: 1962

I'm kind of curious what everyone's metric for "good storytelling" is? What, in the past four years of the Expanded Universe, is considered "good"? Obviously TCW isn't, but I'm curious if that's wholly a continuity issue, because I'm really hard pressed to think of a whole lot of other releases which have entertained me as much as TCW has the past few years.

Going back to my analogy and my belief that people would rather take what we're getting over Thrawn trilogy caliber writing that's non-continuity, I find it doubtful that fans could even get past the whole "continuity" thing to enjoy a story regardless of quality.

I think I should just post this picture when talking about continuity:


Dude looks pissed.


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:29 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Reepicheep
Master
Master

Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 6832
Location: Sailing into the unknown

Crash Override wrote:
I'm kind of curious what everyone's metric for "good storytelling" is? What, in the past four years of the Expanded Universe, is considered "good"? Obviously TCW isn't, but I'm curious if that's wholly a continuity issue, because I'm really hard pressed to think of a whole lot of other releases which have entertained me as much as TCW has the past few years.

*goes to Wookieepedia*

2008:
-Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor
-Darth Bane: Rule of Two

2009:
-Darth Bane Dynasty of Evil
-Fate of the Jedi (before anyone says anything, I know about the storytelling flaws in this and LotF, but I find them very entertaining reads)

2010:
-Crosscurrent

2011:
-Decieved
-Riptide
_________________

Where sky and water meet,
Where the waves grow sweet,
Doubt not, Reepicheep,
To find all you seek,
There is the utter east.


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

 PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:35 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Crash Override
Master
Master

Joined: 22 Dec 2010
Posts: 1962

See, I don't understand how someone could find Legacy of the Force and Fate of the Jedi entertaining and not find TCW entertaining.

And from the continuity perspective, LOTF completely butchers the NJO. We hear about how Maul's home planet is changed or Ventress' backstory is retconned, but if that's the case then what about Vergere? And Denning contradicts his own books when it suits his purposes, with Fate of the Jedi twisting details of Jaina and Jag's interactions in Dark Nest for absolutely no reason, save perhaps to create angst for their relationship in FOTJ.

The complete character derailment of Jacen is the one continuity issue that *I* have a problem with (don't even care about Vergere anymore), because rather than being a "continuity error" like Iridonia/Dathomir or minor character Even Piell's place of death, it's simply not continuity. You don't take a character and completely discard his characterization and assign him a new one to fit his role in the story and say that it's in the same universe as the prior story, because it isn't. This is something that's actually significant. If I read Apocalypse, where Even Piell died or where Darth Maul was born or Asajj Ventress was born isn't going to matter, but Jacen's derailed characterization is going to be felt, if only because of his absence, if not more due to the fact that the series was begun because of his actions.



Also the only book on that list I agree with is Stover's.


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:43 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  DannikJerriko
EUC Staff
EUC Staff

Joined: 09 Nov 2011
Posts: 1204
Location: Nirn

@Crash My mistake, it was in Saboteur. It says something like "He looked around the cantina, he was the only Iridonian there"
_________________
There's always a bigger fish - Qui Gon Jinn.

You shall learn that history is an intricate weaving of many events. No one thing can be understood without the proper context.

The best techniques are passed on by the survivors.


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

 PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:00 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Arawn_Fenn
Knight
Knight

Joined: 07 Apr 2011
Posts: 217
Location: Ekkaia

Crash Override wrote:
Just did a search of my e-book of Shadow Hunter and didn't find Iridonia mentioned once.
Shadow Hunter p33 wrote:
He knew that he had come originally from a world called Iridonia, but knowing that was like knowing that the atoms composing his body had originally been born in the primordial galactic furnaces that had forged the stars.


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:11 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Crash Override
Master
Master

Joined: 22 Dec 2010
Posts: 1962

This is like when Luke knew Vader killed his father.

TESB sucks for contradicting that.

Imagine if an Essential Guide was published in 1979 and then Lucas contradicted it in 1980 and the ensuing outrage.

But this is one of those situations where quality stories and continuity aren't mutually exclusive. Lucas wrote himself into a corner by having Vader kill Luke's father and he should have respected that and not done The Empire Strikes Back. I'm sure he could have done as good a movie without that component.


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:14 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  VileZero
Master
Master

Joined: 21 Mar 2010
Posts: 816
Location: Maryland

Crash Override wrote:
I'm kind of curious what everyone's metric for "good storytelling" is? What, in the past four years of the Expanded Universe, is considered "good"? Obviously TCW isn't, but I'm curious if that's wholly a continuity issue, because I'm really hard pressed to think of a whole lot of other releases which have entertained me as much as TCW has the past few years.


I've got a love/hate relationship with TCW. If it's good, I love it. When it falls flat, I don't. The stuff like Darth Maul's resurrection doesn't bother me because of continuity issues - I just think it's a real gimmick. But when the episodes air, I might change my mind if the story suits me.

I've actually enjoyed a lot (not ALL, but a lot) of the Expanded Universe overall. As long as the story is well-written and entertaining, I consider it time well-spent. I agree that the vast majority of the Legacy of the Force books weren't all that great, and even some of the Fate of the Jedi books too (although that series is, overall, a better read than LotF IMO). I like when continuity works in the stories, but it's hardly necessary for the sake of a great story.

My problem with continuity really lies with those who take it too far - like roundly criticizing the Coruscant Nights books and its author because dates were incorrect or because Even Piell died in TCW. The former hardly prevents the books from being enjoyable, while the latter was something that the author had no control over. And I've seen fans say, "Well, Reaves should have known better than to use him." Uh, right. Who can argue with logic like that? Rolling Eyes


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:21 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Crash Override
Master
Master

Joined: 22 Dec 2010
Posts: 1962

Yeah, boo on Reaves!

I can understand thinking that bringing back Maul is dumb simply from the comic book logic standpoint but personally I don't have a problem with Star Wars having comic book logic. But then I like Dark Empire.

But I mean Darth Maul being from Iridonia is so inconsequential... and the argument that since it's inconsequential so Lucas should jettison the story, or the parts of it where Maul is from Dathomir *because* it's inconsequential is like... well, why not get rid of Vader being Luke's father then because the first movie already established that Vader *killed* Luke's father?

How's the situation any different? Maul *thinks* he's from Iridonia, so the Essential Guide decided that was factual and put it in. If an Essential Guide was published in 1979 it would have said that Vader killed Luke's father and present it as a fact.

That's why the Essential Guides are so dumb. Star Wars "continuity" is fluid and to publish these books of "facts" without narrative is a futile money-making gesture, because the "facts" are always going to be evolving with the stories, and if the facts are presented by FALLIBLE CHARACTERS rather than as facts outside of a narrative, it's justifiable for them to be wrong down the line. Kind of like Vader killing Luke's father. How about that?

And I just don't get the level of investment people have in these "facts." The reality of the situation is that it's a fictional universe and history has shown that the facts are going to be constantly evolving. Go back in time 15 years and the EU is extremely different. That's not going to change, it's going to be a lot different 15 years from now.

Edit: And I forgot:



Last edited by Crash Override on Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:25 pm; edited 2 times in total


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:24 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Arawn_Fenn
Knight
Knight

Joined: 07 Apr 2011
Posts: 217
Location: Ekkaia

VileZero wrote:
My problem with continuity really lies with those who take it too far - like roundly criticizing the Coruscant Nights books and its author because dates were incorrect or because Even Piell died in TCW. The former hardly prevents the books from being enjoyable, while the latter was something that the author had no control over. And I've seen fans say, "Well, Reaves should have known better than to use him." Uh, right. Who can argue with logic like that? Rolling Eyes


That's bizarre, given the many legitimate complaints that can be made about the series. Reaves not having Jedi powers to see the future is not one of them. The fault lies with TCW for killing off Even Piell after his death had already been fairly recently depicted in CN. TCW seems to be cannibalizing the EU for ideas, and in a case like Piell's it becomes an over-write. They even stole the "Master Piell's dying message" plot point.


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:06 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  illogicalRogue2
Administrator
Administrator

Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 2854
Location: ....last know presence was near the Tingel Arm..

Crash Override wrote:

But I mean Darth Maul being from Iridonia is so inconsequential... and the argument that since it's inconsequential so Lucas should jettison the story, or the parts of it where Maul is from Dathomir *because* it's inconsequential is like... well, why not get rid of Vader being Luke's father then because the first movie already established that Vader *killed* Luke's father?

How's the situation any different? Maul *thinks* he's from Iridonia, so the Essential Guide decided that was factual and put it in. If an Essential Guide was published in 1979 it would have said that Vader killed Luke's father and present it as a fact.

That's why the Essential Guides are so dumb. Star Wars "continuity" is fluid and to publish these books of "facts" without narrative is a futile money-making gesture, because the "facts" are always going to be evolving with the stories, and if the facts are presented by FALLIBLE CHARACTERS rather than as facts outside of a narrative, it's justifiable for them to be wrong down the line. Kind of like Vader killing Luke's father. How about that?

And I just don't get the level of investment people have in these "facts." The reality of the situation is that it's a fictional universe and history has shown that the facts are going to be constantly evolving. Go back in time 15 years and the EU is extremely different. That's not going to change, it's going to be a lot different 15 years from now.



If we are to continue this line of thought I suggest we move it to the continuity thread- we're getting less about Maul and more about the whys of continuity.

A lot of the issues with continuity is just that Crash- they are inconsequential. inconsequential to the point of banging ones head on a desk. Why is it so needed if it
is so inconsequential? Why couldn't there be a way to fit it all? Find a way to stop changing characters back stories ever 2-5 years?

But I don't think you're going to get the level of investment since you see the guides as "dumb" which I would too if I saw them all get made pointless by the guy who made it all in the first place. They would HAVE VALUE if the info in them was correct and not out of date cause one guy thought a change would be cool.

I'm with Arawn: "They have not. "Improved storytelling" is nothing more than a transparent excuse. If they can't tell a good story without pulling crap like bringing Maul back, their "storytelling" is at a low ebb"- I have to agree. Changing Mauls previously established back story while small has larger implications for the other authors working in the SWU- take Mauls tats- they are no longer Sith Tats given to him by Sidious. Which isn't big but now the Legacy reference to those Sith using Sith Tats like Maul now makes little sense.

I truly think GL would have been better off leaving the CW era off limits to the books and comics. This is where the selling out occurred to me- shouldn't allow stories to exist if you plan on over ridding them. It just makes Star Wars more like the early Star Trek books.

As for TCW I'm with Chris- when I like it- I love it- but when it hits a snag it uses GLs status to make it all better- that to me is a sell out move. I still recall the Genndy series be touted as having GLs hands all over it. He even got awards, but now a days it doesn't even get G status. Which tells me that even TCW we see today can be retconed tomorrow in the live action later.
_________________

-Bring on your thousands, one at a time or all in a rush. I don't give a damn. None shall pass.
-
-To become a Jedi, it is not the Force one must learn to control but oneself.
-
-Podcasts: Star Wars Beyond the Films, The Star Wars Report, & EUCast


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger

 PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:31 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Alan Skywalker V
Master
Master

Joined: 10 Apr 2011
Posts: 598

I agree with Rogue: non Maul continuity debate should be moved to the continuity thread.

Back to the subject.


View user's profile Send private message

Post new topic   Reply to topic    The EUCantina Forums Forum Index » The Expanded Universe: Literature & Media

Page 6 of 9
All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next

Display posts from previous:

  

Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
Jedi Knights 2 by Scott Stubblefield