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 PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:05 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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@Cerrinea: I'm going to have to agree with Autobon. I've discussed murder, homosexuality, capital punishment, child beauty pageants etc. Now I've never been murdered (obviously Wink ), I haven't had anyone close to me murdered, I've never had to face the death penalty, been homosexual, or been in a beauty pageant (Razz ), but I still discuss them. I want to be as gracious as possible here and I hope that I don't come across as a jerk. If this topic is stressful for you, I completely understand, and no one is forcing you to visit this thread, but I think we should be allowed to continue. However, if you really want us to stop, I'll respect that and won't say another word on the subject.
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 PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:08 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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That's fine, Reep, go ahead and discuss. I have no problem with something that's an actual discussion.
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 PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:36 pm Reply with quote  
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  Dog-Poop_Walker
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Auto: You've already stated that you think its irrelevant to the discussion, so why keep talking about it? Just to prove that you can challenge me? That seems pointless and insensitive.

I didn't say you can't talk about things you haven't experienced, or can't know anything about them. But can you understand why someone who has experienced those things wouldn't like being told how they should feel about it by someone who hasn't?

To be clear I'm not making a presumption about what you or anyone has experienced on here. I don't think we should talk about it because I don't think it's relevant or has been adequately addressed. Frankly, I don't really want to talk about it and don't like hearing about it.


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 PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:53 am Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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Dog-Poop_Walker wrote:
Auto: You've already stated that you think its irrelevant to the discussion


Sort of. I made a critical observation of the fact it seems to be one of the more prevalent arguments used to justify abortion, despite its statistical irrelevance.

Quote:
so why keep talking about it? Just to prove that you can challenge me? That seems pointless and insensitive.


By saying that we should not speak on the topic of rape (since I am not a victim), you brought up an argument similar to the "men have no say on abortion" concept. I believe this to be a false idea and one that harms discourse on this highly important topic. I felt obligated to point this out.

Quote:
But can you understand why someone who has experienced those things wouldn't like being told how they should feel about it by someone who hasn't? Frankly, I don't really want to talk about it and don't like hearing about it.


I can understand why someone having gone through such a horrific ideal might not want to talk about it. I do not believe anyone here is telling a rape victim how they should feel about their ordeal. When rape comes up in this topic, it is to debate whether or not a baby deserves to receive the death penalty for a crime its father committed.


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 PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:27 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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Autobon wrote:
Life Is The Path wrote:
Pro choice is not about supporting or agreeing with abortion, necessarily. It's about believing in a person's right to choose what happens to their body .... [and] anti abortion is the act of denying others that choice.


This is an unfortunate concept nowadays due to the pro-abortion camps purposeful twisting of the topic.

Abortion is not about women's rights, it is about human rights. Certainly a women has a right to her own body, however that is not the issue here. The abortion debate is about whether or not the entity inside the woman's womb is human. And if it is human, is killing an innocent human morally or legally justified?

The Pro-abortion camp has long sought to change definitions, even lie to make their points. They will lie about the statistics of back-alley abortion deaths, they will bring up rape victims even when they know it makes up a statistical nothingness compared to all abortions, etc.

Abortion really is a black and white topic. You have either killed a human being, or you did not. And being "personally" against it, while letting others go about their ways is a complete cop-out. Lets replace the word 'abortion' with 'murder.'

"I am against murder, but think others should have the choice to do it." Sounds pretty awful doesn't it?




--------


Wow. This topic kind of blew up. I'll reply as I go along, and edit here.

No, it isn't a cop out. I am anti abortion and pro choice. I wouldn't want my future kid to be aborted, unless it's medically necessary - but that does not give me the right to say others can't. I also have no problem changing synonyms. If someone wants to murder their unborn kid for certain reasons then that's fine by me.

Quote:
I've committed murder in my heart.
Reep, could you help me out and tell me what this means, please? (Not knocking it. I simply don't know what it means. The knocking can come after Razz )

Quote:
There is no need for abortions today. Do you really think by killing off children you have solved the problem of income among the poor? Because so far about 50 million babies have been aborted.... and it still seems to be a problem. In fact, that is actually a reason things like social security are failing. You have cut off the source of many things that our system required to keep running.

But to not digress, the simple fact is, there is not one logical reason to keep killing off more then 1 million humans every year.


Well, yes there is a need. The situation you state is not the sole reason people get abortions.

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A good friend of our family was recently diagnosed with a terminal cancer. Should her life be terminated immediately, or should she be allowed to live out the rest of her days?


I think it's up to her.
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 PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:07 am Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Life Is The Path wrote:

Reep, could you help me out and tell me what this means, please? (Not knocking it. I simply don't know what it means. The knocking can come after Razz )


Razz

Certainly. After reading about particular criminals (of the very worst sort- people who kidnap, torture and kill children on film- that sort of thing), I've found myself imagining hunting them down Rorshach-style. It's not something I'm proud of.

According to Christianity, thinking thoughts like that are on the level of (or very near) the actual thing. I'm sure you're familiar with "But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart".
Beacuse of that, when I'm in my right mind, I don't feel comfortable condemning anyone to death. Just lock 'em up and throw away the key.
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 PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:21 pm Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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Life Is The Path wrote:
No, it isn't a cop out. I am anti abortion and pro choice. I also have no problem changing synonyms. If someone wants to murder their unborn kid for certain reasons then that's fine by me.


If a parent wished to murder their five year old daughter would that also be fine by you? Maybe they didn't like the color of her hair? I notice you use the word "unborn," therefore you either don't believe the baby is a human being, or you think murder is not immoral.

I am to assume your fine with murder though, since you use the word "synonym" to relate the word to abortion.

In either case, you are not "anti-abortion." Letting your own child live is not the same as being against the murder of the unborn. Even those that are pro-abortion have children of their own. We do not call them anti-abortion.

Lets say you lived during WW2, when Hitler was going around and murdering Jews by the millions. Would you have given Hitler two thumbs up saying, "Its great you are exercising your right to choose! Murder is fine by me!" If this was your position, do you honestly think your "personal" choice would make you pro-Jew, or pro-life? You either support it, or you don't.

Quote:
Well, yes there is a need. The situation you state is not the sole reason people get abortions.


Give me a situation that justify's killing over a million babies a year. No, better yet, give me a situation where having killed 50 million babies improved society in some measurable way.

Quote:
Quote:
A good friend of our family was recently diagnosed with a terminal cancer. Should her life be terminated immediately, or should she be allowed to live out the rest of her days?


I think it's up to her.


So you don't think its up to her doctor or other third party? Then why do you think young children should be murdered based on whatever emotional whim a third party so happens to have at the moment?

Are you making your distinction based solely on the age of a human being?


---


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 PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:40 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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Autobon wrote:
Life Is The Path wrote:
No, it isn't a cop out. I am anti abortion and pro choice. I also have no problem changing synonyms. If someone wants to murder their unborn kid for certain reasons then that's fine by me.


If a parent wished to murder their five year old daughter would that also be fine by you? Maybe they didn't like the color of her hair? I notice you use the word "unborn," therefore you either don't believe the baby is a human being, or you think murder is not immoral.


If you really think they're the same thing, then there's no point in my answering. But, just for clarity, I will: I believe that, for the first few weeks in the womb, that it is a foetus, not a baby. But I do not believe the two instances to be equal.

Quote:
I am to assume your fine with murder though, since you use the word "synonym" to relate the word to abortion.


You started it, mate:

Quote:
Lets replace the word 'abortion' with 'murder.'


And, no, I'm not okay with murder, and against the death penalty (luckily the justice system agrees with me). But you seemed to be hell-bent on getting someone to say it, so I did. I do not see abortion as equalling murder.

Quote:
In either case, you are not "anti-abortion." Letting your own child live is not the same as being against the murder of the unborn. Even those that are pro-abortion have children of their own. We do not call them anti-abortion.


Well, yes, I am anti-abortion. If someone asked me if they should have an abortion or not, then I'd urge them not to, but, ultimately, it is their choice.

Quote:
Lets say you lived during WW2, when Hitler was going around and murdering Jews by the millions. Would you have given Hitler two thumbs up saying, "Its great you are exercising your right to choose! Murder is fine by me!" If this was your position, do you honestly think your "personal" choice would make you pro-Jew, or pro-life? You either support it, or you don't.


See first answer.

Quote:
Give me a situation that justify's killing over a million babies a year. No, better yet, give me a situation where having killed 50 million babies improved society in some measurable way.


Give me a situation where having killed 50 million babies didn't improve it. You're asking for the immeasurable, the impossible, the unknowable.

Quote:

So you don't think its up to her doctor or other third party? Then why do you think young children should be murdered based on whatever emotional whim a third party so happens to have at the moment?

Are you making your distinction based solely on the age of a human being?


---


No, I think it's up to her. But I tend to think that the woman who's carrying a baby is a little bit more than just a third party.

I'm going to have to pull a Caedus here and say that we should just agree to disagree.
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Last edited by Life Is The Path on Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:07 am; edited 1 time in total


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 PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:50 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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Reepicheep wrote:
Life Is The Path wrote:

Reep, could you help me out and tell me what this means, please? (Not knocking it. I simply don't know what it means. The knocking can come after Razz )


Razz

Certainly. After reading about particular criminals (of the very worst sort- people who kidnap, torture and kill children on film- that sort of thing), I've found myself imagining hunting them down Rorshach-style. It's not something I'm proud of.

According to Christianity, thinking thoughts like that are on the level of (or very near) the actual thing. I'm sure you're familiar with "But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart".
Beacuse of that, when I'm in my right mind, I don't feel comfortable condemning anyone to death. Just lock 'em up and throw away the key.


Ah, very interesting. Thanks for the info! Yes, I've certainly had a few imaginings of that type, but I've never equated it to being on or near the same level. And, yes, I'm familiar with the adultery line. But, again, I feel that thinking and doing aren't on the same level.
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Life is like the Force - Luke Skywalker, Crucible. Damn straight I am.


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 PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:29 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Yeah, it's interesting. I can see why many people wouldn't equate thinking with doing, because we're not hurting anyone with mere thoughts. It's more to do with our state of mind than actual effects. For example, I was surprised when I found out that, according to Christianity, the ultimate vice was pride. What harm does it do others? It's more that it gives us the ultimate anti-God attitude. And, of course, actions often follow thoughts given the right circumstances. If those criminals were in the same room with me during those thoughts, who knows? I shudder to think.

Life, I have a question for. You said you consider an unborn baby a foetus and, therefore, not 'alive' (which, by the way, I do to) but how do you justify ending a bay's chance at life being different than ending a baby's life? What makes it more acceptable?
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 PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:15 pm Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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(My answer will have to be very truncated because my computer crashed when I was halfway through answering the last time Razz)

To answer I need to elaborate on when I define a phoetus being human. The foetus grows its brain and has its first heartbeats at 12 to 24 weeks. Beyond that, it is alive, and should be afforded all the rights of a human - but before that it is just a collection of cells, and thus not 'alive', and as such I believe that it's up to the mother to choose whether or not she wants that lump of cells to become a human, or to have an abortion, to terminate it. I believe in the mother's right to choose that. To give that right, or to not.

I hope that answers your question (probably not, since I'm not entirely happy with it myself, but it's the best I can do in time afforded me. If not, let me know, and I'll have another try on Monday.).
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Life is like the Force - Luke Skywalker, Crucible. Damn straight I am.


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 PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:39 pm Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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Life Is The Path wrote:
I believe that, for the first few weeks in the womb, that it is a foetus, not a baby. But I do not believe the two instances to be equal


Like the word toddler or adolescent, the term fetus is simply applies to a human at a certain stage of development. However, personhood is not defined by stage of development, but by membership in the human species. It is a member of that species due to its biological characteristics, both actual and potential (Nardone).

At the moment of conception, a baby has 100% of its DNA (human DNA), completely unique to that of its mother (or anyone for that matter). From this moment on there is no line that you can draw that pinpoints when baby goes from not human, to human. It is the only logical starting point of personhood.

I believe many that are pro-abortion realize this, whether or not they want to admit it. And so they take a term, fetus, simply used to describe a stage in development, and now use it with a subhuman connotation.

Semantics however, only affect perceptions, they do not change reality! If we say the fetus is not part of the human species, then we must say it is a part of some other species. This cannot be done.

What line would you draw? Why "the first two weeks?" Is it a baby after a few weeks... and a day? What scientific data or logic do you use to come to that specific date? What makes a human a human if not its biological characteristics, its DNA?

Quote:
Quote:
I am to assume your fine with murder though, since you use the word "synonym" to relate the word to abortion.

And, no, I'm not okay with murder. But you seemed to be hell-bent on getting someone to say it, so I did. I do not see abortion as equalling murder.


If you don't think it is murder, then do not use words like "synonym" or even sentences where you use the word murder and abortion interchangeably. I can only go on what I read from your posts.

Quote:
Autobon wrote:
Autobon - give me a situation where having killed 50 million babies improved society in some measurable way.

Life Is The Path wrote:
Life is the Path - Give me a situation where having killed 50 million babies didn't improve it.


Sure I know of many, but let me give you one. Social Security. I am not going to get into the in-depth workings of the system, but the simple idea is that it requires new people paying in to the system to support those living off the system. But having eliminated 50 million people, there will soon be too many people living off the system because there are not enough new people paying into the system. Thus, you have a collapse.

NOTE: I do not mind answering the same questions I pose to others. I however do not appreciate it being repeated back to me without you first having answered it yourself.

Quote:
No, I think it's up to her. But I tend to think that the woman who's carrying a baby is a little bit more than just a third party.


Third party in the fact that the baby its own unique person. It has its own DNA, its own gender, etc.


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 PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:44 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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Actually, a fetus does not have a gender until about 12 weeks gestation.

and zygote, embryo and fetus are medical terms used to differentiate gestational progress.

You can't call a zygote a fetus because a zygote is simply a fertilized egg. An embryo cannot be called a fetus because at 10 and 12 weeks gestation cell differentiation happens and organogenesis occurs. This is when the transition from embryo to fetus is made.

Medically speaking, Life is right. While the potential for a human being exists, the fetus is technically not yet a human being.
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 PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:02 pm Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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I've read over this and I remembered why I stopped coming here. Its a subject that men can disagree on but ultimately have zero right to comment on. I don't believe its right, but its a woman's choice. Would I fight a late-term abortion? Absolutely, but early-term I wouldn't fight, I'd simply disagree with.

@Life: Can we just call "agreeing to disagree" by that now? "Pulling a Caedus" has a nice ring to it, and its kind of a positive statement.
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 PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:30 pm Reply with quote  
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  Salaris Vorn
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Caedus_16 wrote:

@Life: Can we just call "agreeing to disagree" by that now? "Pulling a Caedus" has a nice ring to it, and its kind of a positive statement.


I second this motion.
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