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 PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:04 am Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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Mara Jade Skywalker wrote:
Exactly. A baby, despite whether it's breathing oxygen or not, is a human being.


Yup. And to people that want to act like unborn babies are not people yet, i ask a simple question. Where do you draw the line and say whether it is a person yet? There is no logical answer to that, so people always try to skirt around the question. They don't like thinking about it, its much easier just to say its a lump of cells.

Kind of like when Obama was asked when he thought life started and he replied that he couldnt say because "its above [his] pay grade." Excuse me? So he admits that abortion could be killing actual living people yet he supports it whole heartedly. How could you even live with yourself?


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 PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:04 pm Reply with quote  
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  Aush
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Autobon wrote:
But when someone thinks its ok to terminate another life, its not a matter of respect anymore. Its criminal, and its wrong and needs to stop.


So against the death penalty, right? It's funny how some say they're for the death penalty and then against abortion (not saying you are but I've talked with these people). A life is a life, right?
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 PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:35 pm Reply with quote  
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  Old Master Ben
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I'm against the death penalty and abortion.


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 PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:49 pm Reply with quote  
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Autobon wrote:
Kind of like when Obama was asked when he thought life started and he replied that he couldnt say because "its above [his] pay grade." Excuse me? So he admits that abortion could be killing actual living people yet he supports it whole heartedly. How could you even live with yourself?


Does a baby start at 2 cells or 2 organs? It might be simple for you to answer that question for your own reasons, but where do I have the authority to answer that question? That's what I believe he meant when he said that, even though it does sound weird when he says "pay grade."

Like you said, the easy way to be for abortion is "a lump of cells," but what about the embryos used to help people get pregnant. Are those living things too that are then destroyed after use? Murder? No? I don't think it is as simple to tell others what to do; I am against abortion, but I recognize a wide variety of arguments for and against that I just can't answer even with my stance on the issue. However, that doesn't mean I don't stop trying to come up with an answer instead of just saying "it's just wrong."
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 PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:17 pm Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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Aush wrote:
So against the death penalty, right? It's funny how some say they're for the death penalty and then against abortion (not saying you are but I've talked with these people). A life is a life, right?


I am for the death penelty for extreme cases such as cold blooded murder. Abortion is not the same thing. The baby involved in an abortion did nothing wrong. And thats funny, because i would say the opposite. I would say how can you be against the death penalty but support abortion?

Now i know some might take issue with what i have to say, and thats fine. But in my opinion abortion is just another form of the death penelty, just for the innocent instead of the guilty.

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Does a baby start at 2 cells or 2 organs?


Good question. Thats why I think its funny that some people dont support late term abortion but they support it at maybe 4 months for example. That doesnt make any sense, where do you draw the line? I believe a life starts when the sperm meets the egg. Because from that moment on, unless something interferes, that will grow up to be a human being. So to me, drawing arbitrary lines as to where a life starts or not is pointless.

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I am against abortion, but I recognize a wide variety of arguments for and against that I just can't answer even with my stance on the issue. However, that doesn't mean I don't stop trying to come up with an answer instead of just saying "it's just wrong."


Well, i know that there different views out there. I dont just say "its wrong." I have given plenty of reasons as to way i believe what i believe. On the previous pages i have written some fairly long arguements that state what i believe, and more importantly, why i believe that.

And are there arguements out there that i dont know how to answer? Sure of course. This is the case with most views. However taking the arguements i have heard for and against abortion, and can make my judgement. And to me, abortion isnt right. I have yet to hear an arguement to change my view.


Last edited by Autobon on Sun Oct 05, 2008 12:11 am; edited 1 time in total


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 PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 12:07 am Reply with quote  
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  Salaris Vorn
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Since we've brought up the death penalty I think it might be good to bring up a question that was raised by Darth Skuldren earlier in this thread.

If abortion was made illegal what exactly do pro-life people suggest be done as punishment for the women who have an abortion anyway (and are therefore technically "murderers")?

This is just something I'm curious about. Now women who are well off won't have as much of a problem with hospital fees and such but what about the women who are single, and/or poor etc. They might not be able to afford proper medical attention to ensure a safe birth and/or afford the food to ensure proper development of the fetus (and later born baby). I might also point out that this might lead a mother abandon the baby once it is born (there is after all no reason this can't happen). To clarify yes I am aware such a person probably couldn't afford an abortion either, and yes I am for government programs that give assistance to the poor. I understand however if people don't think government insurance programs should pay for abortion and I've got no real problem with that exception, its public money so I would respect such a restriction so long as it isn't applied to the private sector. Anyway, so do you support government policies to assist such women to ensure that the baby can be properly taken care of during and after birth? It just seems like it would be hypocritical to be pro-life yet not want to support the baby after it's born (sort of pro-life up until the baby born).

This also puzzles me. I understand that there are both men and women on both sides of the issue (I'm a man fyi). What right do us men have to outlaw something that we will never experience? Voicing an opinion is fine and everyone's right, but if everyone is equal under the law shouldn't the men have no say in this matter since it doesn't affect them one way or the other?

I'm one of the people who is more along the lines of abortion up to X days/months. So since the issue came up of how can I believe that. I'm not arbitrarily stating at X point it is now human. Mine is based on the possibility of accidentally conceiving (and hey that would even be possible in a married couple) and giving the mother a period of time to 1) figure out she's pregnant and 2) decide if she actually wants the baby. Now my own opinion is after 1 month a mother should have a pretty good idea of whether she wants to go through with it (she'll probably know even sooner than a month), after that I think abortion should be limited to 1) a situation where the mother might die without an abortion (in my opinion since the mother will definitely live her life should come first rather than risking both dying since there would be no promise that the baby would live) or 2) a situation where the baby would be born with physical/mental problems where it would be too costly to provide the medical care for the baby (in which case the baby will most likely die anyway). Not saying this is a perfect system I have but its what I believe.
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 PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 12:44 am Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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Salaris Vorn wrote:
If abortion was made illegal what exactly do pro-life people suggest be done as punishment for the women who have an abortion anyway (and are therefore technically "murderers")?


Well. First off, the reason a lot of abortions happen is because the lack of a organized support. Parental education, financial support, a freind support group, education about other options such as adoption, etc. There are so many options, but in the sad case of adoptions the government turns it into a long, tedious, and expensive process which cuts down on people willing to do it. Then they use this as an excuse and point out that not many people want to adopt, etc. No kidding. These things are lacking, so many people feel hopeless. A lot of pro-lifers forget about these things and just attack abortion.

Anyways, to answer your question I believe its murder and believe it should be judged as so.

And obviously their are cases such as where the baby will die being born and so will the mother. In that case of course an abortion is ok. The baby is dead, so no point in the having the mother die as well.



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They might not be able to afford proper medical attention to ensure a safe birth and/or afford the food to ensure proper development of the fetus (and later born baby).


Like I said earlier, make it easier to help these people. Make it easier to pursue other options such as adoption. Support has to be there, and its really important. We cant just have things be the way they are, then of course abortion looks to be the easy way out.


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I might also point out that this might lead a mother abandon the baby once it is born (there is after all no reason this can't happen).


This happens today, and abortion is legal. People do this, and whether abortion is legal or not, wont change anything. This goes back to helping support people and educating them.


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What right do us men have to outlaw something that we will never experience?


Because, the baby is half our DNA. Because the womens rights arnt the only thing taken into account. There is a baby and it has rights to. Women have no right to kill a baby because it will hinder their freedom for 9 months. No not even 9 months, because its only a real hinderance later in the pregnancy.

And also, its not only men against abortion. There are millions of women against it.

.


Last edited by Autobon on Sun Oct 05, 2008 11:03 am; edited 2 times in total


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 PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:00 am Reply with quote  
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This is one of those topics where it's very difficult if not impossible to change someone's stance; once you've got one, you've got one. Now, when it comes to the mother at risk of dying in birth, which way do you go? Who's life is more important, if either? Should things be allowed to natural transpire since that's how it would without doctors, or do you save the life you know you can? Very interesting point, whether you're on one side or the other.

As for man's involvement, you don't have a pregnancy without one. Should they have a say? I would think so, so both should be involved in the process of solving the problem; equal rights, right?

If we really want to eliminate this problem, it isn't going to be solved by "you can not abort" or "you can abort," but eliminating the causes of unwanted pregnancies. Whether the causes are ignorance, parents, society, or something else entirely, I'm sure you'll find evidence on all sides. Will we ever eliminate all these causes? Well, I don't think so, but wouldn't it be more efficient to stop unwanted pregnancies than argue where life begins to at least start? Or is there some other way to deal with it?

I did have my stance on gun control changed because I found a new side of the argument. I felt really blind for not realizing that stance before hand, so I'm always, always open to hearing other stances on all topics, because how do I know I'm right if I never put my beliefs to the test? I think those who try to steer clear of these debates either fear dealing with people who will ignore what they have to say (which I try so hard to do, which is why I'll have to go back and read those past posts when I get the time) or fear that their beliefs may not be correct. No one likes to be told "you're wrong!", right? Just my thoughts on much more than just this topic, and I will check out those posts, Autobon Smile

EDIT: was writing this as Autobon added another post Smile
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 PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:17 am Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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Aush wrote:
This is one of those topics where it's very difficult if not impossible to change someone's stance; once you've got one, you've got one.


Thats very true.

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Now, when it comes to the mother at risk of dying in birth, which way do you go? Who's life is more important, if either?


You see this is more somthing i would be tolerant about. Because both sides want to save something. I believe both lives are valuable, thus making it very hard to make a decision. This is one of those arguements, where like i said before, i just dont have the answer to it. Most people would say the child however, because it has a longer life to live.

The problem with abortion is that almost every single case is just a lifestyle choice where the women decides the child will impede on her life. Or that she wont be able to take care of it, even though there are support groups, and such out there. (those need more attention and funding though)


Quote:
eliminating the causes of unwanted pregnancies.


Thank you. This is something i strongly believe. It needs to be dealed with at its roots. I know this has multiple roots but nonetheless it needs to be addressed.

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I think those who try to steer clear of these debates either fear dealing with people who will ignore what they have to say


To be honest i feel the same way. Everytime i post something, i am always nervous. Because for example this, i come on a Star Wars forum to get away from all that kind of stuff, but i see this in a thread. Since i feel strongly about it i post. However I am always nervous someone will take it personally and then not want to engage in Star Wars discussions with me. This is the same with other things, but ya, debating is good, and you do learn a lot about the other side, such as why they think the way they do.

,


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 PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:51 pm Reply with quote  
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  Salaris Vorn
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First off thanks Autobon (and Aush) for your constructive answers, you gave me something to think about and I hope my post has done the same for you. Smile

Autobon wrote:


Well. First off, the reason a lot of abortions happen is because the lack of a organized support. Parental education, financial support, a freind support group, education about other options such as adoption, etc. There are so many options, but in the sad case of adoptions the government turns it into a long, tedious, and expensive process which cuts down on people willing to do it. Then they use this as an excuse and point out that not many people want to adopt, etc. No kidding. These things are lacking, so many people feel hopeless. A lot of pro-lifers forget about these things and just attack abortion.


Ok I think we're more or less on the same page in realizing that abortion is only part of the debate and other stuff needs to be considered as well. I think whether or not abortion is legal the additional problems you listed need to be addressed, and I would guess abortions would decrease if those issues were given more attention.

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Anyways, to answer your question I believe its murder and believe it should be judged as so.


Alright I can respect your stance on murder, you've given some thought as to what would happen if abortion was banned and I respect that.

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Make it easier to help these people. Make it easier to pursue other options such as adoption. Support has to be there, and its really important. We cant just have things be the way they are, then of course abortion looks to be the easy way out.


I give you credit for taking a deeper look at the issue and what additional issues need to be considered. Too much of the debate seems to frequently just be about the one issue with no consideration to related issues.



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This happens today, and abortion is legal. People do this, and whether abortion is legal or not, wont change anything. This goes back to helping support people and educating them.


I didn't mean to come across as implying abortion was the answer to that problem. I was bringing that up to point out that banning abortion wouldn't really solve many of the related issues that so frequently seem to be ignored in the debate. I think we're probably in agreement that those other issues need to be addressed and abortion shouldn't be the sole part of the debate.

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What right do us men have to outlaw something that we will never experience?

Because, the baby is half our DNA. Because the womens rights arnt the only thing taken into account. There is a baby and it has rights to. Women have no right to kill a baby because it will hinder their freedom for 9 months. No not even 9 months, because its only a real hinderance later in the pregnancy.


Thanks for explaining that to me, can't say I completely agree with you but I at least understand what your saying. I can't really argue that the father shouldn't be completely removed from the equation if he's there. However, I don't think the choice should be removed entirely for the woman (otherwise the father would basically be dictating what the mother could or could not do, assuming they had differing opinions). I guess basically what I'm getting at is that it should be left up to the individual couples what to do and not have the government dictate the answer for them.

To recap my position stated in my earlier post, I think after 1 month if the mother hasn't decided against having the baby she should go and have it and not have abortion as an option (barring a complicated medical situation). I don't think abortion should be used as a substitute for normal birth control measures, and should be used more as a back up in case the birth control failed. Say for example a married couple is informed uses birth control, such as pills or a condom, but for one reason or another it fails. It seems perfectly reasonable to allow an abortion in that case since it's not like they hadn't taken steps to avoid pregnancy.

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And also, its not only men against abortion. There are millions of women against it.


I never claimed women weren't against it (reread my post and you'll see I acknowledge that both men and women are on both sides of the debate). I would be hard pressed to take part in this debate maintaining such an assertion just within this forum since clearly some of the forum members who are women are against abortion.
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 PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:26 pm Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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Salaris Vorn wrote:
abortion shouldn't be the sole part of the debate.


Yes, I believe all crimes toward children are wrong. The reason abortion is such a huge debate though is because since it was legalized over 50 million abortions have taken place. And thats a disturbingly high number if your pro-life like me.


Quote:
I guess basically what I'm getting at is that it should be left up to the individual couples what to do and not have the government dictate the answer for them.


The reason i dont think it should be left up to individual couples is because even if the father and mother both come to an agreement, there is still the unborn baby in the equation which doesnt really get a say in anything. I believe every human being has rights, and thus i feel its wrong.


Quote:
To recap my position stated in my earlier post, I think after 1 month if the mother hasn't decided against having the baby she should go and have it and not have abortion as an option


I understand what you are trying to say, giving the mother a chance to decide if she wants it or not. However as i have stated previously, I dont believe the mothers rights are the only thing in question. I believe life starts when the sperm meets the egg. From that moment on it will grow up to be a human being if nothing interferes. Thus, 1 month, 6 months, 9 months, etc it doesnt really matter to me. So regardless of where life starts, you have disrupted a process that will have created a baby.

Anyways, thanks for the reply. I appreciate your thoughful response.

.


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 PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:19 pm Reply with quote  
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  Mara Jade Skywalker
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Okay, I do want to apologize for perhaps trying to bash my beliefs against everyone's heads, and seemingly not really offer any thoughtful reasons why I believe what I believe. Sooo...I shall now attempt to debate more civilly. Smile

Salaris, you mentioned something about what should be done to the mothers that have abortions if abortion was illegal. I believe they should be treated as anyone else who commits a murder. Since that is what I believe it is. If it were illegal, then yes, I think they should be charged with murder. Or a varying degree thereof depending on the circumstances. But killing a human being is what I would classify it as, yes.

Somebody also asked how one would rate that against the death sentence. Personally, I think there is a major difference. The death sentence is for someone who has done something wrong. An unborn baby has done nothing wrong and therefore should not be punished for it. However, a serial killer (or whatever) should be punished for his crimes. If the court decides that the penalty should be the death sentence, well then he brought it upon himself. The unborn baby, on the other hand, never had a say in the matter. So I do see those as two totally different things.

Now, don't get me wrong by saying that I think people should go around killing all the criminals in the world so that they may atone for their crimes. No, that would make us as bad, if not worse, as the people who committed the crimes. It's up to the government, and therefore an appointed judicial system, to hand out the sentence.

I also don't think that abortion is the only issue here. We should also be dealing with the many teenage and/or unmarried pregnancies. To just go around having sex with everybody because you so wish isn't something that should just be done. There's a right and a wrong, and I believe it to be wrong to have sex when you're not married. Now I don't suppose there could be a law concerning that, necessarily, but I do think individual families should crack down on it. Kids should be taught differently. Right now it appears that the world (or at least our country) has degraded down to the point that having sex on this date or the other is really no big deal. I mean what was that about the teen pregnancy pact? That was insane! So why does nobody really care anymore? Because we just slowly allow things, more and more. One day kissing somebody before you're married is okay (and I'm not saying that's wrong, bear with me), the next having sex before you're married is okay. Before long nobody will even need to get married because everybody will be free to party with everybody, and it won't really matter.

Sorry, I didn't mean to go off on a rant about that. But I'm just trying to get across my point that it's not just abortion that's the problem here. And as you were saying about those instances where the mother can't afford to keep the child. Then I think she certainly needs help. I don't want to dump everything on our already overtaxed government, but if people everywhere cared and helped out...I don't know. It's one of those things that could never be completely perfect, but I do suppose it could be better.

Anyway, if any of that didn't make sense or if I contradicted myself somewhere, somebody please let me know. I'm typing fast cause I have to run. But thanks guys for being so...polite about it all. I dislike debates where we're all trying to shove our ideas down the other's throat. Stop me if I sound like I'm doing so! Smile
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 PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 7:01 pm Reply with quote  
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When abortion is called murder, should the punishment for the murder be done on the mother, doctor, or both? This may be a little off topic (or not?) but I thought this would be interesting. But my main point is if abortion is murder, then the punishment should be no different from killing an already living person, right? (I guess I better define "already living person" to be one who is already born.) By saying that the mothers (or doctors?) should be punished a little less than murderers makes it seem that those babies are less important/valuable. I don't mean to split hairs, but this does seem a bit contradictory if the "murderers"(?) of non-born babies are dealt less harshly than so called "regular" murderers.

This is an interesting thing I haven't notice until now; I guess it stood out after seeing others mention less punishment for abortions. Of course, it would depend on how the law defined it, if a law was ever past concerning this issue.

Mara Jade Skywalker, you bring up some good points about other issues related to this. Being a parent (correct me if I'm wrong since I'm not one Smile) is a full time job. Some use television as a babysitter or entertainer whether they mean to or not. Since society is throwing more sex on television and making it look so entertaining, then it's no wonder these things are happening with teenagers and young adults (and this is just one example).

Also, a law telling who can and can't have sex seems a little too personal, and I think may be a big reason why people who say they are pro-choice fear if something like abortion was passed. For me, I think if you get pregnant, you're having a baby; however, an explicit law could start a possible domino effect. Of course, if Vietnam became communist, it was said the whole world would fall and that didn't happen, so who says a law banning abortion could domino into other "choice" laws being passed?

Now, that sounds a bit extreme, and I'll agree with you, but many believe such a thing. The question now is how do you get an extreme person to see reason that such a domino effect would not happen? Maybe the domino effect with communism?
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 PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 7:35 pm Reply with quote  
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  Mara Jade Skywalker
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I'm not quite sure who you were referring to, but I never meant to imply that abortion should have a lesser punishment. I think it should be treated as full-fledged murder, as you said. If my previous post implied otherwise, sorry about that. The only thing I remember saying was 'varying degrees'. And by that I simply meant things such as 'negligent homicide', 'murder', etc. The different 'degrees', so called, of killing. But yes, I think it should be treated as full-fledged murder, because that's exactly what I believe it is.
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 PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:45 pm Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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Aush wrote:
When abortion is called murder, should the punishment for the murder be done on the mother, doctor, or both?


Like I said previously, I believe it should be treated as a murder case is treated today. Meaning all parties involved are punished. Just an interesting side note, but did you know abortion doctors cant be sued if something goes wrong? Thats really screams out womens rights to me Wink


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