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 PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:48 pm Reply with quote  
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  MizzeeOH
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Abortion, in itself, is not a good thing. But sometimes it's neccessary.


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 PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:31 pm Reply with quote  
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  Mara Jade Skywalker
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My opinion is not based on any kind of religious beliefs. Unless you count the fact that I believe murder to be wrong and you want to classify that as a religious belief. *shrugs* Your call. My point is that I think murder is wrong, and abortion is murder, plain and simple. And to top it off, it's murder of a completely innocent child.
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 PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 6:28 pm Reply with quote  
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  Anakinlover89
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I think abortion is wrong but I do believethat it should be legal. A woman should be able to make her own decision and get the proper medical treatment for the operation.
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 PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:18 pm Reply with quote  
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  Salaris Vorn
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Son Of Skywalker wrote:

But should anybody have the "right" to kill anybody because they made a mistake? Like I said before, no creation is a mistake-the action is-and there's a plan for everyone. Imagine if your mom was selfish and thought because she'd lose her ability to stay out all night or something, she decided you weren't worth it. Aren't we all worth it? Personally, I think we are.


Well I would certainly agree with you that we were worth it. However, if a mom is so "selfish," as you put it, to get a legal abortion I highly doubt making abortion illegal will stop her. Specifically, she would probably turn to the illegal unsafe abortions Darth Skuldren referred to. We have the historical precedent for having outlawed stuff go underground, the Prohibition Era of the 1920s being a very good example. In this way with Darth Skuldren that it is better to have it legalized safe abortions than illegal back ally abortions that are very dangerous.

to Mara Jade Skywalker:

I never said "all" anti-abortion people have the position for religious reasons, just that it is my impression that many take the position for religious reasons because some of the "loudest" opposition to abortion seems to come from the religious right. If I have offended you though I apologize as it was not my intent to insult you or anyone else with my statement.


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 PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:33 pm Reply with quote  
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  Mara Jade Skywalker
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No, s'ok. No offense taken. Sometimes I can just get a little...snippy. Sorry about that. Smile
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 PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:12 am Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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All right, hypothetical. If abortions were outlawed, what would you recommend the punishment to be? Most of the pro-lifers seem to see it as plain, all-out murder. Technically since it is planned it would be premeditated murder, and would carry with it a minimum life sentence or even the death penalty. There are around roughly 1 million abortions performed in the United States each year. Let's say 10% continue even when it's illegal, seeking 'back alley' abortion doctors. That's 100,000 women each year. If we begin putting 100,000 women in jail each year with life sentences, or begin killing 100,000, then we're looking at a pretty big problem.

Now I'm not saying that just because it won't be easy to fix that that justifies allowing it, but the enormity of the situation does need to be taken into consideration. If you're truly against it, and want to do something about it, perhaps for starters you could think of a solution to the feasibility of the problem.

Though I still think the fundamental issue at stake here is the freedom of choice and forcing your will upon another. It gets very fuzzy when you try and pin point at what stage a child is actually a child. And no one can possible comprehend all the situations that might bring up the possibility of performing an abortion.

Thus I'll try one more time with a very severe example:
What if a thirteen-year old conceives through incest after having been raped?

If you can honestly say that you would force everyone under that condition to have the child and raise it or put the burden on another family to do so, or leave it to the system to deal with, then I would really like to hear your reasoning for it. To simply state that it's murder is to be rather vague. We kill people with our justice system, its called capital punishment. We also send our soldiers to war to go kill people. You can justify it however you like but it's still the same. And if you want to bring the Bible into it, the Old Testament as the Hebrews slaughtering towns, every man, woman, child, cow, and pig. Thus to simply pass it off as murder is vague. Do you see all situations of abortion as murder? At what phase is it murder? At conception? When there's brain activity?

Well I've rambled on long enough, and I'll probably get another ear full. Oh well.
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 PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:15 am Reply with quote  
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  MasterAndrew15
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Quote:
Specifically, she would probably turn to the illegal unsafe abortions Darth Skuldren referred to. We have the historical precedent for having outlawed stuff go underground, the Prohibition Era of the 1920s being a very good example. In this way with Darth Skuldren that it is better to have it legalized safe abortions than illegal back ally abortions that are very dangerous.


No doubt. Think about the Chinese in the Opium War; they outlawed it, but Britain still got it in. Perhaps not totally legalization, but something that tells people that it should be only acceptable in very severe cases.
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 PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 6:33 pm Reply with quote  
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  ianthinos
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I think abortion is okay to limits. Say if your child had unsafe sex and got pregnant, that child should be fined a really huge fine, say around $1k, differs if the person is wealthy, or if the person is exceptionally poor, so the wealthy don't say "Aw, $1,000 dollars isn't so bad." and it'd even things out, so that childs' parent or the child herself is like "Wth, I'm NOT doing that again." because the parents/daughter just lost a pretty penny with having unsafe sex. THEN the child is put Safe Sex Ed classes, over a summer break, so the child is even MORE less eager to have sex, since they don't want to have to pay a huge fine and have to take classes all over summer break, and if they do break it again, they get an even larger fine, the classes and another penalty the government can decide for themselves.

NOW, for rape victims and safe sex people, rape victims should have NO charge what-so-ever. Anyone who has NEVER been raped can easily point a finger and say "YOU DID A SIN!" but when they, themselves get raped, don't want a child, do you honestly think a thirteen year old wants to go through the worst pain anyone can experience in their utmost life, to give birth to a rapists' child, then either foster it, which most likely the babies will die or give up on life because 95% of the time the mother, or the thirteen year old is at school learning, THEN coming home and spend about 2% of her time with the baby. They know they'll lose almost every privilege they have when having a baby.

Safe sex people should still be fined for an abortion but not as nearly as much.
I know you're thinking "But they were safe, so it's like the rape victims."
Yeah, but they HAD a choice to have sex, if not it's like I said in my prior paragraph, a rape victim. With safe sex users, they should have the broken condom, which would have led to them getting pregnant, to prove that they DID in fact have safe sex, so they court knows they are not lying to them to get a lower fine.
Like the first paragraph, the fine would vary between how wealthy/poor the family is, if the family is living on welfare, you obviously know they will not be able to pay a $3k fine. It's different for a wealthy person, they could easily go to there bank account and pull out $3k for their daughter.

I just think woman aren't incubators, they should have a right to choose if they want to foster the child or not. I think a fetus isn't a 'living' thing. Not because it doesn't breathe air, just because it is cells. Cells that have an idea of where they are at.
If you say "Cells are living things too!" then, don't EVER take showers, wash your hands, sneeze, brush your teeth, mow your lawn, or use weed killer, or any other various household/sanitizing jobs. Because, you are killing a living thing. YOU are killing the bacteria on your hand, YOU are destroying and eventually killing the ants in your yard, YOU destroy the weeds life in your yard. Everything dies, fair or not.

I think my idea could be altered a bit by the government, but generally the same idea.
And the fines aren't the Abortion bills you would get from the hospital, they are added ONTO the bill. Nobody wants to starve a couple of days just because of unsafe sex, it'll decrease the number dramatically, not all, but good. And with the girls who have abortions or give birth to the baby on the streets, away from medical help, and then kill it, somehow with an abortion but humans always find ways I guess, I have no plan set up, maybe in the near future everyone will be in a computer system where they have robots in their system and can be told if they are pregnant and show emotions or though :D
But that's in the future, plus invading of space, but it's like Big Brother, always watching you.

I feel a strong emotion for raped woman because two woman in my family have been raped, and it changed them dramatically. If people just learned to control their hormones and not jump around like a freaking aroused ostrich, things would be 'kay. :C

I just wanted to show my opinion. I, like I said before, don't think woman are incubators to every sperm she gets. Yeah it's killing a life, but we humans do it everyday, sometimes, we aren't even AWARE of it.
THINK OF THOSE DARN ANTS D<


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 PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 7:12 pm Reply with quote  
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  MasterAndrew15
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just because it is cells

So are you and I... We are all cells-- baby in the wound, baby, infant, child, and adult. These "bags of cells" (not quoting you) have ears and toes as early as a week and half after conception.
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 PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 2:40 pm Reply with quote  
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  JonSnow
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Quote:
So why should war be legal but abortion not be legal when it kills on a much smaller scale?


Different circumstances... Killing is wrong general, thus war is wrong in general, but some people, not all, would say there are conditions when it justified to kill somebody, say self-defence..

Anyway perhaps on a societal level we can operate if we allow abortions, but we can't operate if we allow just random killings. Think of it this way.. our society probably could operate if we allow for random killings of the elderly, if you feel like killing an eldery that day you can. We can make it very impersonal.. once people hit the age of 70... they are randomly placed throughout the coutnry, in select homes... there names and history is erased from all records,, they get no contact with family or anything.. Basically i'm saying perhaps possible to create a system that can allow for killign and not even hurt/cause anarcy within the country, to an appreciable degree.

first of all let's bring out some underlying assumption in this line of thought. Your basic premise society is good, and we ought keep it. That is teh fundamental argument that would lead to the conclusion they we should avoid situations of anarchy. And it can be a reason more fundamentally came to in the interest of self-preservation.. Basically you're saying living on, or society continuing, or the human species is a good thing, that's why we should make sure it does.


one I think most people would agree that maintaing a society is a good thing, because of the positive externalities, (what i mean is, the positive effects), it can bring to people. longer, and better living to be brief is what it can offer. However I think on the other hand people agree that murder is fundamentally wrong, and even if a society can allow murders that won't break up the society, it's still wrong to do. And I would say wanting to keep a society afloat, or functional, is actaully a want derived from more basic values about human lives, and human worth. Obviously if you dn't value yourself or others, this concept of a society is pointless.


As far as i'm concerned it's morally wrong to have an abortion, and it is simply killing on another level, its' just hard to imagine a killing of a face we haven't seen yet, so it's hard for us to relate and undertand with what happened. Even if we can create a speical situtaiton where killing won't create anarachy, it can still be wrong, For a similar reason as to why destroying a society might be wrong, it will inevitably cause deaths, and lower standards of living to intentionally break down social order, whcih becase i value human lives as having some inherant worth is a wrong thing to do.

Quote:
I just wanted to show my opinion. I, like I said before, don't think woman are incubators to every sperm she gets. Yeah it's killing a life, but we humans do it everyday, sometimes, we aren't even AWARE of it.
THINK OF THOSE DARN ANTS D<


I think most people here would appeal to some sense that maybe not all living things shoudl be weighed the same... maybe a dogs life and a human's life isn't the same thing.

I understand your point, but even the condition of rape, i think you shoudl go through with the child being born, where I relate to what you're saying more.. is when giving birth, which happens, can put the mothers life at risk, or the mother can or will die in the process, perhaps both will die, child and mother.. those conditions I can relate to more the need for abortion to be at least an option, in certain situations.


I'd like to say though, we all have different views on things, different definitions of what constitutes life, different views on morality, some people might not even beleive in a morality... Hopefully at the minimum we can just appreciate eachothers thoughts and perhaps learn, or take something away from them. This is a touchy subject obviously, people have personal invested intrests in it.. it's a very social, political, and religiously charged issue. Just hoping no one takes difference of views personally becuase i don't think anyone is meaning to attack anyone else directly. those are my 2 cents.
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 PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 2:56 pm Reply with quote  
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  ianthinos
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I think the population also needs to get down some. Cause, here we have Vegetarians saying "Don't eat animals!" when the population of the world is over overwhelmingly high. I think necessary sacrifices should be made. But that's just me and I guess my sick opinion as others have called it. I just think people need to stop having sex for just a wee bit of a time, until like...I dunno all old farts die and the population has room for more human beings. Because, someday in the future, the USA will be like China, too full, hungry people all around them, and having a law of a certain amount of children.
I dunno, I'm 100% okay with abortion as long as extra fines are charged towards the unsafe sex people and not the rape victims.


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 PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:31 pm Reply with quote  
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  Salaris Vorn
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ianthinos's idea for a fine is rather interesting. I think though rather than a monetary fine (where who knows where it will go or if it will actually be put to good use) perhaps community service for X hours and/or forced donation to a group like the Red Cross (or local charity) that isn't tax deductible. It certainly wouldn't stop abortion all together but might result in a decrease in the number of abortions (hopefully creating a suitable compromise) without Supreme Court legal battles.

Something like community service might make it hit home to be more careful since time is a very valuable thing and it won't create the attitude of "oh well my family's wealthy so they can just pay the fine and bail me out." If you think about it if you have a teenager getting an abortion and paying a fine chances are they won't actually be paying a dime and it will be the parents who are. Whereas making the person getting the actual abortion do community service penalizes them instead of the family and therefore might be more effective in discouraging a repeat.
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 PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:54 pm Reply with quote  
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  Mara Jade Skywalker
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I'm not meaning this to be rude to anyone, but that just seems so wrong. It sounds like you're paying (whether with money or community service) for your chance to murder someone. I mean...honestly. It all comes down to murdering someone. That baby is a human being! And yet we treat them like nothing because they haven't been born yet? So who cares if the child is unaware, or whatever. Wouldn't a newborn baby (say just a few minutes old) being killed be classified as murder? Why does it make any difference if it hasn't actually been born yet? It's still a person! *sigh* Sorry, but I just cannot understand how people don't have a problem with that. It's the death of innocent children. Really...what else would you call it?
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 PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:04 pm Reply with quote  
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  Aush
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I agree, it is killing another being. However, I can see the few arguments for pro-choice, neither of which promote murder. What about rape victims for one? For me, I can see someone being brutally raped, giving birth to the child, and being haunted by that night each time she looks at the kid, and the kid is hurt because he or she would pick up on the change in the mother and feel bad himself. Do you bring that child into an already cruel world without the mom looking like that? Then, you'd say adoption...if you told a person who was raped and considering abortion to think of adoption, would you take this child then? For me, it's hard to go with either side no matter how much I believe in abortion being murder when I think of these scenarios. Of course, I don't know everyone's reasons for aborting a baby but I'm sure this story is out there somewhere...of the 40 million+ abortions since Roe v Wade, if you can show me it never happened, then I'll rethink my position Smile
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 PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:51 am Reply with quote  
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  MasterAndrew15
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Quote:
Do you bring that child into an already cruel world without the mom looking like that?


How many thousands of amazing couples want to take care and raise a child but can't because they can't have one. How many would like to adopt? There's no reason that baby couldn't be kept alive, and everyone is made for something.
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