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 PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:32 pm Reply with quote  
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  Salaris Vorn
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Reepicheep wrote:
Well, what I mean by "God's Word" is that the Bible is a bunch of books selected by God to serve various functions. That said I don't think God was whispering in the ears of the authors (perhaps some). Like I said earlier, I think it's fairly obvious that Ecclesiastes isn't "God speaking" - at least not in the sense you would immediately think of. If God dictated Eclesiastes word for word, does that mean God think life is pointless? Does not compute. Confused

I think each book needs to be looked at individually.


I can't fault any of the logic here and would be inclined to agree. I'd actually never heard of your take on what "God's Word" means. Like I said I'd only heard it in the fundamentalist use. You've given some new stuff to think about so you answer was very educational, thanks for that!

Quote:
"Now Abraham was a righteous, pious man, but righteous, pious men can say some really stupid things".


This really made me laugh, with a little adaptation I think it could apply to several academics I know. Laughing

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If you're interested in the literal/figurative thing, I'd really recommend Reflections on the Psalms by C. S. Lewis. Lewis, like me, believed that the Bible was "God's Word", but not every book in the same way. In this book, he looks at some of the more controversial Psalms (including one about beating a Babylonian baby's head against a rock) and has some really interesting things to say about them. It's also just good reading, very enjoyable and at times humorous.


I can't promise that I'll have the time to read it any time soon (writing a thesis sucks up a lot of time), but I will definetely look into it. Thanks for the suggestion!


DannikJerriko wrote:
One of my friends had a ridiculous argument, saying that "if gay marriage was allowed, and a gay man/woman put married on a CV or whatever, how would the employer know whether they're gay or not?". They wouldn't, and it doesn't matter, employers shouldn't make decisions like that depending on orientation.


This just really struck me as an important thing. At least in the States I thought it was illegal to discriminate hiring based on sex, race, marital status, or sexual orientation. What really jumped out at me was the broader issue of marital status since even into the 20th century in some lines of work women got fired for getting married or reaching a certain age (in the last month I read an article on this guy who had worked for an airline for 60+ years and one of the things mentioned was the hiring requirements for airline stewardesses back when he started out). Anywho it seems to me that if we want to ensure the employment rights of straight people we need to apply the same standard to gays. At least I don't see how we can discriminate against gays in job hirings without establishing a legal precident that could be used to backtrack on equal opportunity employment rights for straight people.

To be clear I'm not suggesting anyone here supports job discrimination. However, it seems an important point on the issue of how to treat gays in our society from a legal standpoint.
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 PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:57 am Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Taral-DLOS wrote:
I object to the idea that gay people are the result of something breaking during development. I don't think that's ever been conclusively shown, and it adds to the problem of people thinking homosexuality is a disease to be cured.


Caedus is right, it hasn't been proven either way, so I think it would be best to keep all options open instead of dismissing theories because we don't like them. Just out of curiosity, what if it was proven that homosexuality is caused by trauma in childhood - would you cover up the proof to avoid homosexuality being treated as a "disease"?

EDIT:

I forgot to comment on this:

Life Is The Path wrote:
However, homophobia was first used in reference to a man's fear of being thought of as gay by his peers, rather than being fearful of gay people, themselves. Though, of course, over time, its meaning has evolved.


Very interesting. Thanks for the info, Life. In that case, I think a new word is definitely in order.
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Last edited by Reepicheep on Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:16 am; edited 2 times in total


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 PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:14 am Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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Sadly almost anything displaying that it might not be genetic is ignored. People get what people want, that's how things like this work. Global Warming has all but been disproven for the most part (some aspects are quite true) but all research displaying evidence counter to Gore's Inconvenient Truth has been suppressed and hidden. People hear what they want to hear.
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 PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:55 pm Reply with quote  
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  Taral-DLOS
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If it were ever proven that homosexuality was caused by trauma, then I wouldn't argue with it. I'm a scientist first. I'm not closed-minded to the possibility, but everything I've heard indicates that it is not a disease.

But it is worth noting (I couldn't immediately find a source, but I heard it from a reputable source) that the reputable psychiatric bodies (like the medical professional associations) state that "curing the gay" or "pray away the gay" constitute child abuse.

I suspect that, like the abortion discussion, fundamentally comes down to a difference in our opinions and beliefs. We can't move either of us from our positions, because it comes to your belief that God doesn't like homosexuals, whereas I believe that he does. As a result, I'm going to gracefully bow out of the discussion. I'll keep reading, so enjoy further debate!
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 PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:43 pm Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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Taral-DLOS wrote:
But it is worth noting (I couldn't immediately find a source, but I heard it from a reputable source) that the reputable psychiatric bodies (like the medical professional associations) state that "curing the gay" or "pray away the gay" constitute child abuse.


I'm not for homosexuality, but I agree that those things are indeed abusive. They are run many times by people who mean well but consider their worldview the only way. Parents agree, and children are mentally and emotionally abused, convinced that something is wrong with them, and indeed a lot of homosexual kids commit suicide and several suicide notes have blamed the way they were treated at those places.
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 PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:47 pm Reply with quote  
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  Dog-Poop_Walker
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Caedus_16 wrote:
People hear what they want to hear.


More precisely people see and hear things that conform to what they already think and generally are unwilling or unable to see or hear things that go against it.

See for instance the statement "global warming has been disproven." Ask someone if they agree with that statement, if they say yes then ask them if they believe that global warming is happening. Nine times out of ten they will say no. If they say no to the first question, then nine times out of ten they will say yes to the second one.

If they say "I don't know/ both sides make a good point", then they will probably also say "I don't know/haven't decided." on the second one.

The point is pretty much no human being is willing to admit that what they think is wrong and they are convinced that they would not think so if they knew it to be false, so therefor what they believe must be right and true.


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 PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:47 am Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Taral-DLOS wrote:
We can't move either of us from our positions, because it comes to your belief that God doesn't like homosexuals, whereas I believe that he does.

I believe that God doesn't like homosexuality.
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 PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:28 am Reply with quote  
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  Hogy
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I also believe that (Christian) God doesn't like homosexuality. But he does love homosexuals. Or so I've been told by a local Roman Catholic priest (this is not a direct quote so I apologize if I misinterpreted him).


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 PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:39 am Reply with quote  
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  Dog-Poop_Walker
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God is cool with homosexuals, just so long as they don't try to hit on Him.

He's all powerful, all knowing and everywhere...but two dude's touching each other just really makes Him uncomfortable.

For a Deity who can give guidance on all phenomenon in the Universe- fate and free will, life and death, the nature of existence and the concept of infinity- He sure seems to care about some really petty things. Personally I'd demand more from a spiritual center.


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 PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:49 am Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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Dog-Poop_Walker wrote:
God is cool with homosexuals, just so long as they don't try to hit on Him.

He's all powerful, all knowing and everywhere...but two dude's touching each other just really makes Him uncomfortable.

For a Deity who can give guidance on all phenomenon in the Universe- fate and free will, life and death, the nature of existence and the concept of infinity- He sure seems to care about some really petty things. Personally I'd demand more from a spiritual center.


Its not terribly petty. It wasn't considered natural by the people who wrote it, and chemically heterosexual human coupling is to find the best way to pass on ones genes in a child so the whole homosexuality thing doesn't fit into that. For a Deity who can give guidance on all phenomenon in the Universe - fate and free will, life and death, the nature of existence and the concept of Infinity - there sure is a lot of stereotypical, uninformed information out there about those who follow and believe in Him. He doesn't take attendance at church, he loves the sinner and not the sin, and he boiled commandments down to two basic rules: 1) Love God with all your heart and 2) Love your Neighbor as yourself. People will be judged on what they know, and anymore that knowledge of God grows smaller and smaller all the time. God isn't going to punish people just because they don't follow a strict rule-book, he punishes those who push him aside for no reason other than selfishness. He won't punish homosexuals, in fact I don't believe He will punish them if they TRULY believe they are homosexual. If its to piss off mom and dad ya, it probably won't fly, but for people who live it and who don't let it be their whole identity but just their sexual preference because they believe it is who they are due to chemicals or development or whatever ya, I'm fairly (100%) certain there will be nothing but love from God. Don't let your stereotypical views color the rest of us that same color.
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 PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:23 am Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Dog-Poop_Walker wrote:
For a Deity who can give guidance on all phenomenon in the Universe- fate and free will, life and death, the nature of existence and the concept of infinity- He sure seems to care about some really petty things. Personally I'd demand more from a spiritual center.

If you believe in Christianity, marriage conduct is not a petty thing. At all.
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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:40 am Reply with quote  
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  Dog-Poop_Walker
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I don't like that this discussion is being framed around Christianity. If that was the intention then it should have been called "The Bible's view of homosexuality". It's dismissive of other faiths, not that there are actually members here of other faiths, just like there aren't any openly gay members because they don't feel welcome.

I find that claiming to know what God thinks or feels is supremely arrogant and I'm pretty sure it goes against the basic tenets of Christianity.

I tried to urge people to be objective and be likewise because I wanted to be friends with people here, but I can't do it anymore.

I'm not a homosexual. I'm also not a heterosexual. I can't be because my partner is intersex. Am I supposed to shun them and are they not allowed to have a loving relationship with another human being because of the way that God made them?

You think that telling a group of people not only that they don't deserve the same rights as everyone else, but that they shouldn't even exist, isn't hateful?

If that was being said about people based on (binary) gender or race (people have already shown that they don't care about other peoples religions and ability) it would be obviously hateful and not permitted.

People care more about being polite and inoffensive towards bigots and letting them justify it, than they do about combating oppressive behavior and making this board a welcoming place for people who don't share the same experiences as the majority.


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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:22 am Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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Dog-Poop_Walker wrote:

I find that claiming to know what God thinks or feels is supremely arrogant and I'm pretty sure it goes against the basic tenets of Christianity.


No one claims it, its in the bible and the verses have been listed in several places on this forum.
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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:52 am Reply with quote  
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  Salaris Vorn
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Caedus_16 wrote:
Dog-Poop_Walker wrote:

I find that claiming to know what God thinks or feels is supremely arrogant and I'm pretty sure it goes against the basic tenets of Christianity.


No one claims it, its in the bible and the verses have been listed in several places on this forum.


I believe what he means is more along the lines of what Reep and I were discussing earlier. There are things in the Bible that couldn't possibly be what God believes yet they are there. So saying "it is in the Bible therefore it is God's position" has some fundamental flaws.

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It's dismissive of other faiths, not that there are actually members here of other faiths,


I've not gotten the impression that anyone here would dismiss other faiths, but it is hard to argue the position of a religion when you aren't raised in that faith. For what it's worth I'm unaffiliated and was never raised according to any religion but I've never felt that any members were hostile to my position.

I've had at least one person (not here) grill me on trying to get me to convert, see the error of my ways etc. etc. so I know what it is like to have someone dismiss your believes as having any merit. I've never once felt that even the most fundamental members here had a desire to ram their religion down my throat before I could be accepted. Quite the contrary I've always felt they were content to just accept that I had a different opinion but also happy to answer any questions I might have on their religion even if it wasn't for the purpose of conversion.

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just like there aren't any openly gay members because they don't feel welcome.


Actually we have/had an openly gay member. I recall it very well when she "came out of the closet" and while it may have surprised us I don't recall anyone ever becoming hostile to her. Perhaps some people couldn't see her quite the same way but I never saw anyone say things to convey she was any less welcome. She doesn't post here much for her own personal reasons but she still drops in every now and again.

Maybe I'm seeing things with rose colored glasses and I admit I can't speak for how she actually feels about how the community receives her. As a mod if I saw a member discriminating against another member due to sexual orientation, faith, gender, race etc. I would certainly consider the discriminator as breaking the rules and would take the appropriate action. I believe that the rest of the mod/admin staff would agree with me on this point.

In any event I'm going to just remind people to keep a cool head. If someone wants to introduce new material based on another faith, culture or scientific study that has not been brought up they are quite welcome to do so.
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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:51 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Dog-Poop_Walker wrote:
You think that telling a group of people not only that they don't deserve the same rights as everyone else, but that they shouldn't even exist, isn't hateful?


When did I say this? I don't think of homosexuals as "lesser people". I was "born with" prideful tendencies and according to Christianity pride is the blackest sin of all.

Dog-Poop_Walker wrote:
I find that claiming to know what God thinks or feels is supremely arrogant and I'm pretty sure it goes against the basic tenets of Christianity.


Which tenants are these?

If you buy into organized religion, you believe in revelation. If someone claimed to know everything there is to know about God, then yes that would be arrogant. But if you believe that God has revealed aspects of Himself to humanity, then I hardly view that as arrogance.
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Doubt not, Reepicheep,
To find all you seek,
There is the utter east.


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