Homosexuality

I know this is a touchy subject, but can I just say how much I hate the word 'homophobic'? I'm morally opposed to same sex marriage, but how does that make me a homophobe? I'm not in the least afraid of it. I am about as afraid of homosexuality as I am of turnips! Rolling Eyes

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I'm pretty sure we already have a thread for this. Let me check.

Edit: Odd, I don't see one. And I know we've discussed this topic to death on here. Maybe it was locked and deleted for getting out of hand.

In that case, as you were, but everyone play nice.

Yes, linguistically "homophobia" doesn't make a lot of sense. But the idea behind is that some people view a situation to be a threat to their lifestyle and so they have a worry or an apprehension about how that will effect them.

I think that you already knew that Reep, so I wonder why you had to feign ignorance; maybe to make the opposite of your position seem like an irrational one?

I don't really like these meditation threads because people seem to have a hard time being objective about the issues they are discussing.

Master Joined: 15 Apr 2008 Posts: 4409 Location: Korriban

I don't agree with it, but I also don't care if someone is gay as long as they don't try to involve me. I've been told by people that "everyone is at least bi, they just refuse to try it" and those are the kind of people that I have a problem with. I have gay friends, but they're just people. They don't dress like women or in super bright colors, they don't throw it in your face. You know what we do with straight people who act like that? We diagnose them as narcissists with daddy issues and send them to therapy. I don't care if someone is gay, I'm not afraid of them, I'll hang out with them as much as anyone else, just don't involve me, know that I wanna hear the same amount about your sexual activity as I do a straight person's (none), and just be without acting out. If you need to act out you're gay because of childhood issues, not because you're gay. I don't believe its biological, but its a choice and its yours to believe it if you do. Personally I think if they really wanna empower it make it a decision instead of blaming it on their genes.
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Continuing to say that you don't understand why people say that, when I just said why people say that is what I mean by not being objective.

People don't seem to want to discuss parts of an issue that they disagree with, they just want to give their opinion on it. That doesn't make for much of a discussion, IMO.

I'm not trying to single you out Reep and I'm sorry if I derailed the thread talking about a general thing that isn't really what this is about.

Because homophobe means someone who is opposed to homosexuality. You may not like it and you may not like being called that, that's understandable, but that is what the common expression means and so it will be used in that situation.

It boils down to two issues. One is the use of the term that goes both ways.

Heterosexuals might feel threatened by homosexuality, so they are homophobic in the sense we are using it.

Homosexuals feel threatened by homophobia so they use it as an expression to show that.

The other issue is the convention of language and politics. In order to be relevant we (as a society) wants to have a single word or expression to get across an idea or a statement so that it can be instantly understood.

I personally don't agree with this because it is almost always reductionist and stifling of discussion and just leads to bad tension among people when they are confused about how one thing means something to someone and something different to someone else.

People should say what they mean and explain the context of what they are saying, rather than just assuming that everyone thinks the same thing and follows them on it. But that is of course too much to ask.

(also note that I presented two side to the issues that I showed, rather than just saying what I think. That is what it means to be objective, not just about only sticking to facts)

Master Joined: 15 Apr 2008 Posts: 4409 Location: Korriban

You're doing the same thing Cadeus. I'm not asking you to agree with that expression and I'm not even proclaiming that I agree with it.

I am asking us to agree that we have an understanding of what the common usage of the word means. When someone says it we all very well know that they mean what I have said it means, and it is dishonest to act like we don't know that because we disagree with it.

That is pointless and unproductive. How about we talk instead about what we actually mean and think or an expression that would more accurately reflect it?

Your abortion reference is the perfect example. When someone says that they are "pro-life" we know that they are saying they oppose abortion, even though the expression itself says nothing about abortion and would literally mean they were against death. Darth Plagueis is "pro-life" because he wants to be immortal, but I'm pretty sure he doesn't care about abortion.

EUC Staff Joined: 09 Nov 2011 Posts: 1204 Location: Nirn

Reep, may I ask why you are opposed?
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Yes, homophobe is the common usage. Agreed. But the literal meaning of the word homophobe is someone afraid of homosexuals, whether that is the common usage or not. Reep is simply questioning the common usage. Why is homophobe used to mean "opposed" instead of "afraid", the literal meaning? I don't think anyone is trying to feign ignorance. They are simply expressing frustration with being labeled by a word whose literal meaning wrongly desribes their stance on the matter.

It's no different than people who question the slang of today. For instance, why do people say something is "gay", when what they are describing is neither a gay person nor the term meaning "happy"? I know that is often a common usage, but why use it? It is an incorrect description.

Similar situation. There is no harm meant in either one.
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Master Joined: 15 Apr 2008 Posts: 4409 Location: Korriban

@Mara and Caedus: Yes, exactly.

The word "phobe" does not only mean fear. The word "phobe" means something more akin to "does not like". A molecule that is hydrophobic does not like water, and thus does all that is physically possible to avoid it, as opposed to something that is hydrophilic. It is not afraid of water. Therefore, homophobe is as useful a word as any. If there were a better word, I'd go for it ("sexist" would work, but that refers to gender, not orientation).

Now, on to homosexuality. I have honestly been wanting to voice my incredibly positive opinions about this for a while. Ever since I found out in the Abortion thread how many people are not at all of the same viewpoint as me, which can therefore lead to fun and interesting (and hopefully inoffensie) debates.

To start: I am straight. But I have been doing my best to support gay rights since the end of high school. I was bullied as a kid (on and off, until early high school, dying down by grade 11), for being a geek, or awkward, but also "for being gay."

I am a firm believer in equal rights for all people, regardless of their gender, race, or orientation. Nobody should ever be discriminated against because of their orientation.

Regarding marriage: I think gays should be allowed to marry. That's one of the reasons I'm happy to live in Canada. That said, people may have a point if they argue that marriage is a religious rite that they don't want homosexual people to participate in. Therefore, I accept one (and only one) alternative: marriage be distinctly religious; only members of the clergy may marry; only members of those religions may get married; marriage brings absolutely no tax benefits to the couple; and a separate thing (we'll call it Civil Union) may also exist, that does offer all the tax and legal benefits, and is open to all people. That idea seems to be farfetched, and so I think the easier technique is just to legalize it everywhere.

Caedus_16 mentioned earlier his opposition to the idea that "everyone is bi, and some people just don't try it." I agree with his view; people can be any shade of straight/bi/gay, but it is not for others to judge. I don't like the idea of being a "Kinsey 4" or anything like that. I've been hit on by guys, and they back off when you say no, just like any respectful person should.

Caedus also mentioned not liking it when people, regardless of their orientation, talk to excess about their sexual exploits. I hear that. It isn't homophobia if someone is also uncomfortable with straight people discussing their sex lives. But I'd like to offer a quick explanation as to why it is sometimes a stereotype of gays talking non-stop about their sex lives. When people feel repressed about who they are for sooo long (call it, for 5 years?), and then suddenly are liberated by being Out, then they sometimes compensate for all those years in the closet by talking non-stop about their sexuality. It is usually a phase, and it passes. I had a lesbian friend in high school, and every single conversation fell back to "Oh yea, that reminds me of that time I was with a girl..." It was SOOOO irritating. But I think it's a phase, and a lot of the time it passes. A gentle "I'm not comfortable talking about sex, in general" is hopefully enough to stop any such discussions. It is also genuinely possible that the person just doesn't know about boundaries like that, because other friends they talk to don't have them. My best friend and I have talked at length, explicitly, about our sex lives. But I wouldn't talk about that to acquaintances.

And now to an important point: a lot of gay teenagers get bullied, either because their out, closeted, or are straight and just have the tendencies that make people think they're gay (like me.) A certain percentage of those teenagers commit suicide. That is terrible. Even if you're opposed to gays, one dead kid is one too many. Dan Savage, who is famous for his column and podcast Savage Love, started the It Gets Better project, where adults tell bullied kids that life doe not end at high school, and all the torment of bullying ends at graduation, etc. Adults pledge to do their best to stop bullying in all of its forms, including against LGBT kids. It's a very moving project, and I urge people to take its message to heart. http://www.itgetsbetter.org/

That is all, for now. I hope this discussion will lead to many fruitful debates, without offending anyone.
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It was the year of rebirth… the year of great sadness… the year of pain… and the year of joy.
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