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The Economy
 PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:32 am Reply with quote  
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  Salaris Vorn
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Now in the "Your choice '08" thread we've debated all the candidates economic views. However, the economy isn't going to wait for Obama to come into office and there is no telling how the economy will be when he does come into office. By the time he is in office the situation may have changed so much he may not even be able to implement the policies we've debated. So I thought the economic situation as it is now deserve its own thread where we can discuss the present problems and what should or is being done right now.

Some latest news I found from Google News is AIG may ask for another bailout (copy and paste address into browser, I can't get it to just link from here for some reason):
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/AIG-talks-government-over-new/story.aspx?guid={92C4EF08-68EA-4E4B-908E-36DDE1BD2E55}

My own opinion is to let AIG die. They wasted the money we gave them the first time around so I have no sympathy for them now.

In other news American automakers are lobbying for a bailout (especially GM which may be forced to declare bankruptcy if things don't improve and/or if it doesn't get a government bailout).
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/08/business/08auto.html?bl&ex=1226293200&en=13ba3abeed17e92e&ei=5087%0A
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 PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:47 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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Bailout GM! (thinking about buying stock...)

I'm burnt out of the economic crisis. The only place I'm seeing any effect is in the stock market and the news. Plus rent prices are pretty high. I've made a few pitiful attempt to become knowledgeable of the situation but it seems the causes and effects are always a bit overwhelming. The answer to it all is simply beyond me to fathom. Best of luck to Obama and trying to fix it.

For now, I'm playing the stock market in hopes of things getting better in the long run. (And stock market not committing suicide in the coming year *crosses fingers*)
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My Response....
 PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 3:44 pm Reply with quote  
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  Kal_Skirata
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The economy sucks. And I'm not gonna use this as a ***** session so I'll keep it short. I've been unemployed since Feb and have sent out a ton of resumes. I have two funny stories that I can tell so far but one is better to be told live and not with kids in attendance.

The other is I was turned down by Best Buy just because I didn't pass their on-line psyc exam. So, Best Buy has certified me crazy.

This is your Crazy Uncle Kal heading to the loony bin Smile Coo Koo, Coo Koo, Coo Koo

Good Night ...... and ..... Good Luck.
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 PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 4:24 pm Reply with quote  
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  MasterAndrew15
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See, people don't realize one thing: The President can't do anything for our economy-- that's up to us. Sure, the President can sign bailouts all he wants; we need to stop buying too much, save, and work.
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 PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 5:14 pm Reply with quote  
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  Mara Jade Skywalker
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Kal, that's too funny! I know it kind of stinks, but I sure hope you're able to see it in a humorous light, though you seem to be doing fairly well. Smile

If it makes you feel any better...my dad's a contractor, and we've been scraping money from the ditch for over a year now. We had to sell our house and are having major trouble finishing the much, much smaller one we're building now. I was my dad's secretary for awhile, and trust me when I say don't get into the contracting business...at least not now. Neutral
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Re: Mara Jade and S.O.S.
 PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 6:00 pm Reply with quote  
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  Kal_Skirata
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Thanks for the kind words Mara Jade Smile I do find it very funny now because I use Best Buy as the excise as to why I'm "crazy."

One more thing I forgot to mention to in here. I was also turned down by Babies "R" Us for being over qualified!! That almost killed me when I herd it. It was so hard not to laugh in the guys face while pleading your case just to get a job. Then, to top this one all off; the guy looked at me and said, "Go to Walmart." No lie.

S.O.S;

I completely agree with you. This was a crisis coming for way too long. To me. you can't lay blame on the President if the Congress also didn't react as well. Yes the President signs bills and laws but they have to go through Congress first. I blame BOTH sides and yes I do look to the consumer as well.

But, here is another sector that I blame - - - - The credit card companies!! Yes, It is the responsibility of the consumer to keep our spending in check that is true, but if the Fed lowers the Prime Interest rate, someone please tell me WHY the G^& D@mn credit companies can't do the same D@mn thing??/ Now here's the other thing - they have right to send you a very happy letter saying "We raised your credit limit - Hurray!!!" But, supposedly they don't need to tell you when they LOWER the limit - Is This Fair!!!!!

It's nice that Wall Street, the Banks and possibly the Auto Makers are all going to get this really big fat bail out. When are WE going to get a bailout??

I hope you all don't think I am asking for hand out. I'm sending out resumes everyday to get a job. Finding a job has now become my full time job, but I'd like to see something come my way and it's not just another extension of the unemployment benefits, or mortgage or bankruptcy protection.

I just want a job.

This is your certified crazy by Best Buy Uncle Kal - stepping off his soap box, before I pass out for lack of oxygen from the altitude up here.
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 PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 2:29 am Reply with quote  
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  Salaris Vorn
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It may just interest people to know that Circuit City, the major competitor to Best Buy just filed for Bankruptcy today (monday). News article here: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/387264_circuitcity11.html

I agree the President isn't the only one to blame, and I agree SOS that we shouldn't buy so much, save more money and work. The policies supported by the President and his supporters in Congress helped cause the problem though. I would agree Bush can't do anything, namely because he is in the lame-duck stage of his presidency. I would however argue that, based on FDR's example during the Great Depression, a president does have the potential to have a decent impact on our economy during a crisis such as this.

I think the ironic thing is that the CEOs who led companies into financial trouble aren't getting as much blame as the president or getting fired in droves, and they would probably be most directly to blame for the crisis. Something smells rotten when the leaders keep their jobs despite remarkably poor judgment yet can justify firing their workers.

This whole crisis is again why I support strict government regulation because banks, credit companies etc. when given free reign didn't act wisely, they acted greedily and gave people loans who shouldn't have gotten them. I know those people are also to blame but its a two way street. There is also the fact that businesses engaged in risky investments in order to turn as big a profit as possible when if government regulation had been stricter this might not have happened. Then again since I'm working with the purely theoretical its still possible that the crisis would still have occurred.

EDIT: More news on GM and their continuing problems.
http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D94CR6AO1.htm

EDIT 2: Bloomberg article on GM:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aYF0k4kURnAk&refer=home

It is stated that Chapter 11 Bankruptcy isn't an option, so it would seem the opinion is either GM makes it or it dies (GM itself declared bankruptcy is not an option). Importantly that would mean in one year 2.5 million jobs would be lost if GM goes under.
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 PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 6:48 pm Reply with quote  
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  MasterAndrew15
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Quote:
I would however argue that, based on FDR's example during the Great Depression, a president does have the potential to have a decent impact on our economy during a crisis such as this.


While true, I tend to think we'd have more-- directly or indirectly. Trust me, I'm not economic major, but I do know economies go up, down, and all around daily.
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 PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:24 pm Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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Here is my view of the economy in two quick words

ITS OVER

Thats right, the US economy is trillions of dollars in debt, and then top that off with all the problems with things like Social Security, and you have yourself a perfect mess. I dont think its going to get better for a long time, but instead get a lot worse, and 700 billion dollars to bail out criminals on Wall Street isnt going to do anything. And then lets not forget how all the democrats have been brainwashing people about "man made" global warming, now you get to see why thats so important to them. Thats right, more completely bogus taxes! Woot! And there is nothing to stop them now, since America has given them the entire goverment basically.

I really find it hard to care though, this is what happens to people that live selfish lifestyles that are way out of their means. In a way, i feel bad for them but at the same time i am glad that consequences are finally catching up to people. Of course there are people that didnt do anything wrong, and are getting hurt thanks to others. Sad

wow, ranting feels good sometimes. Just to let it out Very Happy


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 PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 9:33 pm Reply with quote  
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  Salaris Vorn
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Autobon wrote:
Here is my view of the economy in two quick words

ITS OVER

Thats right, the US economy is trillions of dollars in debt, and then top that off with all the problems with things like Social Security, and you have yourself a perfect mess. I dont think its going to get better for a long time, but instead get a lot worse, and 700 billion dollars to bail out criminals on Wall Street isnt going to do anything. And then lets not forget how all the democrats have been brainwashing people about "man made" global warming, now you get to see why thats so important to them. Thats right, more completely bogus taxes! Woot! And there is nothing to stop them now, since America has given them the entire goverment basically.

I really find it hard to care though, this is what happens to people that live selfish lifestyles that are way out of their means. In a way, i feel bad for them but at the same time i am glad that consequences are finally catching up to people. Of course there are people that didnt do anything wrong, and are getting hurt thanks to others. Sad

wow, ranting feels good sometimes. Just to let it out Very Happy


I pretty much agree with everything there on the economy. Last semester I talking to an econ major in my college and she said a friend of hers (graduating senior) had just gotten a job and within 24 hours lost it because the company, Lehman Brothers, went belly-up.

At this point I don't exactly have bundles of pity for any corporation that gets additional taxes after all the stupid investments they've made. As you said they're criminals so lets treat them like criminals and give them fines/taxes that make them pay through the nose.

You know what still bugs me though? If the CEO and all the higher ups took a cut in salary and cut back their pay check to only $1 million a year they could still live very comfortable lives AND they would have a lot of extra money, maybe even enough to avoid getting a bailout. But noooo instead its fine for them to fire their workers, keep their huge salaries and just wait for a government bailout.

I would just like to point out that this whole mess was started by Republican policy (seeing as they had majority in Congress until '06 and the Presidency). Just want to set the record straight on it not being the Democrats fault for causing the problems this time Wink

Ok my rant is over. *sighs* your right there is something real nice about having a good rant. Very Happy
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 PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 9:49 pm Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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Salaris Vorn wrote:
I would just like to point out that this whole mess was started by Republican policy (seeing as they had majority in Congress until '06 and the Presidency)


First off, they have also had the majority during the Clinton presidency too and i dont see anyone complaining about them then. And this economic mess wasnt started overnight, its been building up for much longer then the Bush presidency. Democrats are plenty responsible for the mess we are in, its not like republicans ever had 100% control over the government.

Of course democrats are going to blame everything on Republicans. Each party wants to take the other down no matter what, and they will lie about things no problem. The idea that this was all republicans fault is a huge lie. Did republicans have something to do with it? Absolutely, but the democrats have plenty of fault as well.

Also dont forget, I would much rather have the old congress back then Pelosi's circus. There is a reason that the democratic congress has a lower approvel rating then the president. Wink

Quote:
You know what still bugs me though? If the CEO and all the higher ups took a cut in salary and cut back their pay check to only $1 million a year they could still live very comfortable lives


Oh without a doubt. But the situation with the bailout now is the most criminal thing i have ever seen, and i cant believe they are getting way with this. Its the biggest fraud ever.

Quote:
Ok my rant is over. *sighs* your right there is something real nice about having a good rant.


Oh i know Very Happy


Last edited by Autobon on Sat Nov 15, 2008 12:34 am; edited 1 time in total


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 PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:33 pm Reply with quote  
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  Salaris Vorn
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Autobon wrote:
And this economic mess wasnt started overnight, its been building up for much longer then the Bush presidency.


I have no illusion that all the causes were just over night. For example, the auto industry has had it coming a long while. Probably since at least the 1990s or maybe even earlier when they stopped really having revolutionary ideas and just stuck to modifying what they had while overseas competitors came up with revolutionary ideas. On a side note: yes the idea of a hybrid car is awesome but its not truly revolutionary, how do we think submarines worked underwater before nuclear power?

Quote:
Democrats are plenty responsible for the mess we are in, its not like republicans ever had 100% control over the government.


Well the Republicans had the Presidency and until 2006 had the majority in Congress so how much more control do you want? That being said I agree the Democrats are at least partially to blame if for no other reason than not acting as a strong minority counterbalance to the Republicans when the Republicans had the majority.

Quote:

Of course democrats are going to blame everything on Republicans. Each party wants to take the other down no matter what, and they will lie about things no problem. The idea that this was all republicans fault is a huge lie. Did republicans have something to do with it? Absolutely, but the democrats have plenty of fault as well.


I don't mean to come off saying the Republicans and only the Republicans are at fault. All I was trying to point out was that the immediate causes happened during the Republicans watch. The point here being that the Republicans were in a better position to do something than the Democrats and so should catch more (but not all) of the blame. Until 2006 the Democrats weren't in a position of power in Congress to push any legislation forward that could have staved off our current crisis while the Republicans did have that power.

As you pointed out this really just boils down to the political blame game and in the greater scheme of things it doesn't really help our current situation. All things considered I would say attributing blame is the province of historians and who deserves the majority of the blame will be determined soon enough (who knows by the time we retire our grandkids will probably be reading in their high school history books who is to blame).

Quote:

Also dont forget, I would much rather have the old congress back then Pelosi's circus. There is a reason that the democratic congress has a lower approvel rating then the president. Wink


I really hate to say it but I can agree here in a way. I won't go as far as to say I want the the old congress back but I certainly am appalled by the Democrats with their knee jerk reaction to automatically respond to the auto industry's cry for bailout money. As we have both agreed it would be much better to just tell the CEOs to take salary cuts and fund their companies that way.
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 PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 12:39 am Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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Yes this is a blame game, but at least we agree on numerous things. Specifically that bailout money isnt being spent the right way, and i would go on to say that its more a bailout for the CEO's then it is for anyone else. And they dont deserve it, they took risks and some of them became very wealthy. However they should be made to experience the consequences of taking sometimes bad risks.


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 PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 12:49 am Reply with quote  
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  Salaris Vorn
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Autobon wrote:
Yes this is a blame game, but at least we agree on numerous things. Specifically that bailout money isnt being spent the right way, and i would go on to say that its more a bailout for the CEO's then it is for anyone else.


So far all evidence supports that conclusion and it doesn't sound like anyone is particularly motivated to change that trend anytime soon (I'll believe someone is motivate to change the trend when they do more than just deliver a line). Kind of our own economic Titanic going, "everyone to the lifeboats, women and children first!*"
*only if you are traveling 1st or 2nd class. All others must wait for water to be above ears before becoming eligible

Quote:

And they dont deserve it, they took risks and some of them became very wealthy. However they should be made to experience the consequences of taking sometimes bad risks.


I highly agree. Can I attach a 200 pound lead weight to their golden parachutes now? Twisted Evil Wink
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 PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 3:26 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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The Economy: the number one thing I'm super sick of hearing about. So no comment.
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