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A True Sith
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 PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:27 pm Reply with quote  
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  chewbacca.89
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DarthMRN wrote:
Maul was a true enough Sith by the definition that he was a powerful darksider who followed Sith teachings. But he wasn't a true Rule of Two Sith IMO, for he had no ambition to supplant Palp, and AFAIK didn't even know that this was the thing to do. In addition to being deliberately used as a tool rather than a true apprentice.


Sorry to be stupid, but what does "AFAIK" mean?
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 PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:42 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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As far as I know
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 PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:50 pm Reply with quote  
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  DarthMRN
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As Far As I Know.

It is a way of covering my bee-hind in case I am totally wrong.


Also, out of principle I will paraphrase something a friend of mine recently reminded me of: "In all our gaming and laughing at lolcats, it is easy to forget that with the Internet, we have the accumulated knowledge of all humankind at our fingertips". It was in reference to it teaching him basic sewing skills, but in this case I bring it up because you bothered asking in the thread and waiting for an answer, when this of all things, is something you could google easy. Not everything is that easy to just search for, like complicated concepts that may be used a certain way in a discussion and is best explained by the user. But for acronyms and other simple, clear-cut things with just one primary meaning -just search for it. You will thank me.
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 PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:52 pm Reply with quote  
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  Ultimatedash
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But in TCW we hear Maul say, "They started without me"( or something like that) which seems to mean he was more in on the plan than at least I personally expected. Plus we see Maul seeming to want to form his own side in the war recently. So apparently getting cut in half and almost forgotten gave him some ambition.

So what do you guys think? Was Maul always more of a Rule of Two Sith than we believed??

Or does anyone think that is now becoming a more true Sith?


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 PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:44 pm Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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Ultimatedash wrote:
But in TCW we hear Maul say, "They started without me"( or something like that) which seems to mean he was more in on the plan than at least I personally expected. Plus we see Maul seeming to want to form his own side in the war recently. So apparently getting cut in half and almost forgotten gave him some ambition.

So what do you guys think? Was Maul always more of a Rule of Two Sith than we believed??

Or does anyone think that is now becoming a more true Sith?


According to Plagueis's novel Maul had no idea. It bothers me that the authors are shoe-horning this crap in only to have it ruined even further.
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 PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:50 am Reply with quote  
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  DarthMRN
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He always did look forward to having the role Anakin eventually did in the great war with the Jedi, so I interpreted it in that direction. He also knew there could only be two, which neatly explains his desire to kill Dooku, calling him a "pretender". He was only left out of the loop as far as how one became Master was concerned, thinking it was a post inherited when the Master died of other causes.

No point worrying about it, though. According to that cool Season 5 trailer, Sids will track Maul and Savage down and lightsaber duel them. Maul's reaction to that will reveal any TCW override soon enough.
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 PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:11 pm Reply with quote  
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  Ultimatedash
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DarthMRN wrote:
He always did look forward to having the role Anakin eventually did in the great war with the Jedi, so I interpreted it in that direction. He also knew there could only be two, which neatly explains his desire to kill Dooku, calling him a "pretender". He was only left out of the loop as far as how one became Master was concerned, thinking it was a post inherited when the Master died of other causes.

No point worrying about it, though. According to that cool Season 5 trailer, Sids will track Maul and Savage down and lightsaber duel them. Maul's reaction to that will reveal any TCW override soon enough.


So would consider him say, a sort of apprentice still? He has the combat skills, but only partially understands the teachings.


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 PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:26 pm Reply with quote  
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  DarthMRN
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He was a tool, and Palp had foreseen his death. An apprentice of sorts, sure, but the Rule of Two is "one to embody the power, another to crave it". If you cut away the last half, the half actually responsible for making the Sith stronger generation by generation, he isn't much of an apprentice for that particular Sith organization.

But as a general Sith apprentice and warrior in a historical context, I believe I have seen canonical confirmation that he was one of the all-time best. I just seriously question his credentials as a Rule of Two Sith.

EDIT: Yep, Fact File 1:
One of the most skilled and deadly warriors in Sith history, Darth Sidious apprentice [Darth Maul] took part in the first encounter between Jedi Knight and Sith Warrior for more than 1,000 years in the battle for Naboo.

Of course, that quote is contradicted by every Jedi/Sith clash taking place during those thousand years, but I digress...
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 PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:40 pm Reply with quote  
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  Ultimatedash
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So Count Dooku, was he simple a tool as well?? Personally I beleive he had more ambition then Maul did, but still haven't seen anything to indicate he was prepared to betray Sidious.


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 PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:03 pm Reply with quote  
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  DarthMRN
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Darth Sidious holocron avatar, EGttF p. 169 wrote:
Maul completed his basic training several years before the Battle of Naboo, and served me well as an assassin and extension of my will. As loyal as he was, I made no effort to caution him when I foresaw his death in a duel with the Jedi on Naboo, for by that time, the Jedi had already become aware of their "Chosen One," the remarkably powerful Anakin Skywalker. I had foreseen that young Skywalker would eventually become my apprentice, but that I would have to wait for him. Ultimately, Maul was nothing more than a tool, and despite his sense of purpose he never realized that it was not his destiny to raze the Jedi Temple.
[...]
But as with Darth Maul, Darth Tyranus's tenure was not indefinite. When the opportunity finally came for Anakin Skywalker to take his place beside me, it was imperative to end Tyranus's apprenticeship. Skywalker himself did the deed, which came as a complete surprise to Tyranus. It still amuses me that the old scoundrel never foresaw that my goals might hinge on his death.


Clone Wars Campaign Guide p. 183 wrote:
For Count Dooku, the end of the war means the end of his charade with his Sith Master. When the war is over, there will no longer be a need to pretend that Darth Sidious and Supreme Chancellor Palpatine are two different people - neither of whom are otherwise necessary to the Confederacy of Independent Systems. Dooku can dispatch Sidious and become the new Sith Master...and the ruler of the new Sith Empire.


I was actually pleased that TCW also went this route with Dooku trying to enlist Ventress for real. Which may suggest that the idea was originally GL's in the first place.
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 PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 9:32 am Reply with quote  
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  Taral-DLOS
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A True Sith should be only of the original species called the Sith (usually red, often with facial tentacles).

All other Sith are at worst pretenders, at best inheritors of the Sith Legacy.
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 PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 2:12 am Reply with quote  
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  Dog-Poop_Walker
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DarthMRN wrote:
What about before? Say, Darth Ruin? Near as I know just a Jedi who declared himself Sith out of the blue. And since Bane was of his line, with the movie Sith following, this defintion would demote them all to untrue Sith. Kinda problematic.


Eh, I forgot about Darth Ruin. According to GL he was the founder of the Sith, along with the Old Republic only going back 2,000 years. Fortunately, it's been retconned that he just joined the rest of the Sith that already existed at time. Kinda unavoidable. That can be the exception to the rule.

Quote:
Elaborate. In Path of Destruction, Bane clearly permits darksided servants and followers, so long as the formal title and full teachings are limited to a single apprentice. So why does it disqualify Sids?


I'm saying that is all that he allowed. He just wanted an apprentice as a puppet, not someone to pass on the role of the Sith and certainly not to overthrow him. In DP it says that once he gained immortality he intended to do away with all apprentices and maybe even to do away with the Sith organization. Palpatine's Empire at least cannot be said to be a Sith Empire, compared to those that came before and after.

Hogy wrote:
Krayt was taught by XoXaan, one of the founders of the Sith Lords. So I fail to see how his succession to the Sith has any less credability than Banes.


Ok, I didn't know that. I guess that it must count then, but only because of retconning new characters into existing stories, like the previous example.

Bane is clearly a true Sith no matter how you slice it, so if Krayt is too, then it just means Bane's line is a schism group... which is Ok, but it sort of makes the whole point of the Rule of Two pointless, doesn't it? and it calls into question the validity of Sidious fulfilling the Grand Plan. I feel that way about the Lost Tribe too. Ok, so I understand why Bantam had to bring the Empire back ten times, but what gives to keep bringing back the Sith and say, "oh, this group that we just introduced 40ABY? yeah, they go back to the Sith from 20,000 BBY." Lame.

As for Dooku, I don't think he counts, I don't believe that he was really Sith, he was just a Dark Jedi who wanted to rule the Galaxy. IMO, he would have overthrown Sidious, not to replace him, but to oppose him and he wouldn't have continued the Sith organization. He was more of an equal to Sidious than an apprentice in that regard, and he used people the same way. That is why he wouldn't make Ventriss a Sith.
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 PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 6:28 am Reply with quote  
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  DarthMRN
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Dog-Poop_Walker wrote:
Fortunately, it's been retconned that he just joined the rest of the Sith that already existed at time.

My my, new stuff on the Ruin front? And what seems to be a clear intent from Licensing to make all Sith part of the same true lineage. Seems a little contrived, and undermines the Jedi victories, I must say. Pest control.

Quote:
I'm saying that is all that he allowed. He just wanted an apprentice as a puppet, not someone to pass on the role of the Sith and certainly not to overthrow him. In DP it says that once he gained immortality he intended to do away with all apprentices and maybe even to do away with the Sith organization. Palpatine's Empire at least cannot be said to be a Sith Empire, compared to those that came before and after.

Right. I had heard of that, even though I haven't myself gotten around to reading the book yet. Must say I don't much like it, since Dark Lord implies he wants to keep things going with Vader even when immortal, and the EGttF implies the only reason he came back after dying was that Vader didn't defeat him fair and square, which toghether always suggested to me the immortality was just to take death by old age out of the equation, not the entire RoT! Particularly when Palp's goal was to thwart the Vong invasion, meaning his work would not be done simply by ruling the Republic and gaining immortality. There was no need for this retcon, basically. Sids fulifilled the RoT perfectly well.

I'll reserve judgment for when I finally read it as a cheap, used paperback, but so far it seems Luceno screwed the pooch on that particular topic.

Quote:
IMO, he would have overthrown Sidious, not to replace him, but to oppose him and he wouldn't have continued the Sith organization.

Wasn't there something about his plans to use both the Jedi and Sith as his pawns in the new empire? Sith as an army, the Jedi as police, something like that?
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 PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:49 pm Reply with quote  
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  Ultimatedash
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^^ yes I'm pretty sure there was something like that. Though if I remember correctly (whih I might not be) it was to sort of merge them. Like, once they controlled the galaxy, to teach the Jedi Order some of the Sith ways, and then use them to create the ultimate peacekeeping force. I'm pretty sure he never realized Palps wanted to wipe out the Jedi.


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 PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 6:53 pm Reply with quote  
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  Hogy
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OK. WTF. I'm outta here for now.


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