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Episode VII in 2015 [spoiler thread]
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 PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 1:50 pm Reply with quote  
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  YodaBauer2442
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Forgive me if I brushed over anything, I shouldn't even be posting at the moment but I wanted to say this.


I think a major reason (maybe not the biggest but up there) that there aren't more women in action/blockbuster type movies is violence. If you have a female protagonist versus a male antagonist or vice versa you're going to have a man beating on a woman. Even if she kicks butt it's still a man trying to beat a woman up. I think at some deep level a lot of people have a problem watching that. I think the reason why you're getting more female BA characters, like Black Widow in Marvel, is because younger audiences feel less and less like this.

I also think no matter how tastefully it's done people will cry cat fight at a lady hero and lady villain and people just don't even want to go there. That's not the film makers fault, it's just something in society.


I also think there are times where you make a cast all one gender so you don't have romantic tension where you don't want it to be there. This is also a thing in society that's changing. Sure, some of it could be people being sexist but I don't think all reasoning is malicious.



In regards to SW being about a Father and a son, Leia being there doesn't mean it's not about a father and a son so I don't see your point. Nor did I say Star Wars should always be about a father and a son, just that I'm not surprised if it is. Nor have I said that a mostly female cast inherently hurts the story.
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 PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 2:32 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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Well amidst the rumors, I'm crossing my fingers for a Jaina Solo versus Asajj Ventress lightsaber battle.
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 PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2014 3:25 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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Reepicheep wrote:

1) I dislike it when outside pressures determine creative decisions. I don't care if it comes from studio execs or the masses/minority groups. I just really dislike it. Maybe I'm not seeing thing from a franchise perspective, but in my opinion, art shouldn't be a democracy. It should be an autocracy, or at most an oligarchy; an artist and their work.


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Pictured: Autocracy in action.

Seriously? Democracy, autocracy, oligarchy - these words have absolutely no bearing on the process of film making. None. The industry could perhaps be said to be an oligarchy. And sure, painting and photography (but only to a degree) can be thought of as autocratic, but only because there's just one person, usually, in the creative process. But for every other art, music, book writing, movie making, they're very much a collaborative process.

Who's in charge in that picture? JJ? Sure, he's the director, but he already has outside forces working on his 'creative picture'. He has the actors around him, the producers, the writers, the sound and visual crew - and the corporate backers (in this case Disney and Lucasfilm) and yes, us the viewers. JJ leads the way, but it's a collaborative process, and one that's forever changing due to outside forces. Whether it should or shouldn't be doesn't enter the picture; it is, and as long as there are other people working on the movie, and are invested in the movie, it always will be thus. And of course, on the money side of things, you could do what you want, but since, as my previous article showed, 51% of movie goers are women, you'd do well to include them as much as possible in the experience.

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And the beauty of it is that, if you don't like the way stories are being told, you can make your own!


There's no beauty that I can see. We're not all writers or musicians or directors. For the most part, we have no interest in being part of the movie making process, and no skill to do so. And on top of that, again as the link showed, it's just not that easy for women to get the job in the first place.


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I wholeheartedly agree, Life. With the Original Trilogy and the Prequel Trilogy, we got the whole father-son story. It's now time for a mother-daughter story or father-daughter story with a female Solo-Skywalker in the lead. ROTJ prepped everything for women being in positions of leadership with Princess Leia and Mon Mothma leading the Rebellion. It's only natural for the progression to continue, for the new government to further suppress the sexism and xenophobia of the Empire.


I'd quite like to see that - but even then, it's not entirely necessary. I'm sure others would be just as happy if we had a Ben Skywalker centric film, but with greater numbers of women in it.

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If you have a female protagonist versus a male antagonist or vice versa you're going to have a man beating on a woman. Even if she kicks butt it's still a man trying to beat a woman up


I recall the Avengers movie. Great movie, wasn't it? Yet when I heard people bemoan its faults, I heard that the problem was there was only one woman in there, not that she was being beaten up. I don't think this is as big a problem (or even a problem at all) as you're trying to make out.

Quote:
I also think no matter how tastefully it's done people will cry cat fight at a lady hero and lady villain and people just don't even want to go there. That's not the film makers fault, it's just something in society.


I've no doubt some people will. But until we actually get a movie with more than one woman, and in that specific set up, I'd say this talk of 'people will say catfight!' is rather pointless.

That said, Once Upon A Time does have that set up, and I hear no calls of catfight. Maybe the cheering of having more than one female main character, and well done ones at that, is drowning out those calls.

Quote:
I also think there are times where you make a cast all one gender so you don't have romantic tension where you don't want it to be there. This is also a thing in society that's changing. Sure, some of it could be people being sexist but I don't think all reasoning is malicious.


I'm not entirely sure what your point is, here. Movies often have romantic tension - and this is one of those times where corporate intervention is negative, where they dictate that the movie must have a romantic plot to appeal to the women in the audience. This is often quite insulting (actually so) as you can imagine. The cast doesn't have to be all female (because lesbians) to have no romantic plot. A cast with, equally, men and women can have that.

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Nor did I say Star Wars should always be about a father and a son, just that I'm not surprised if it is.


Not explicitly, though it was heavily implied.

Quote:
In regards to SW being about a Father and a son, Leia being there doesn't mean it's not about a father and a son so I don't see your point.


I disagree on this, and I forgot to say it earlier. It's not a Father/son story. It's a story of the Skywalker Saga.

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Nor have I said that a mostly female cast inherently hurts the story.


Still haven't answered my question, though.

But let's try another, similar question that does address previous points of yours: Why does the story demand that certain characters be male? They could quite as easily be women, it really isn't that difficult. Because, you know, gender is not a character trait.
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 PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2014 11:10 am Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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Life Is The Path wrote:
Reepicheep wrote:

1) I dislike it when outside pressures determine creative decisions. I don't care if it comes from studio execs or the masses/minority groups. I just really dislike it. Maybe I'm not seeing thing from a franchise perspective, but in my opinion, art shouldn't be a democracy. It should be an autocracy, or at most an oligarchy; an artist and their work.


Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)


Pictured: Autocracy in action.

Seriously? Democracy, autocracy, oligarchy - these words have absolutely no bearing on the process of film making. None. The industry could perhaps be said to be an oligarchy. And sure, painting and photography (but only to a degree) can be thought of as autocratic, but only because there's just one person, usually, in the creative process. But for every other art, music, book writing, movie making, they're very much a collaborative process.

Who's in charge in that picture? JJ? Sure, he's the director, but he already has outside forces working on his 'creative picture'. He has the actors around him, the producers, the writers, the sound and visual crew - and the corporate backers (in this case Disney and Lucasfilm) and yes, us the viewers. JJ leads the way, but it's a collaborative process, and one that's forever changing due to outside forces. Whether it should or shouldn't be doesn't enter the picture; it is, and as long as there are other people working on the movie, and are invested in the movie, it always will be thus. And of course, on the money side of things, you could do what you want, but since, as my previous article showed, 51% of movie goers are women, you'd do well to include them as much as possible in the experience.


I'll just quote Harrison Ford:

Q: Did you ad lib Han's famous line "I know"?

A: It's not really an ad lib, it was a suggestion, and movie making's a real collaborative process at its best. You don't ad lib it, you suggest it and then you try something in rehearsal and then you agree. So it was my suggestion, because I thought it was more of a character line than what was written, but the director and Carrie and I all thought it was a good idea at the time so we did it.

Emphasis mine.


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 PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2014 2:33 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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@Life: Conceded. Film-making is collaborative, but the director is the unifying force (no pun intended). The crew gets behind the director's creative vision. Any good leader will listen to suggestions, complaints etc., but they're still a leader. Often other artists will come up with great ideas that the director wouldn't have even thought of, but the director is well within his creative rights to refuse an idea he doesn't like. As a side note, I don't think book-writing is generally collaborative. Sometimes it is, depending on the author's style.

Let me clarify: I have no problem at all with artists collaborating. I just dislike when outside forces with non-artistic agendas force things that wouldn't have happened organically among artists. For me the primary culprits are business executives on one end and society's (i.e. the masses and minority groups) expectations/demands on the other. And btw I think these outside forces are, at least partially, to blame for the character gender inequality in film/TV. For example the co-creators of Avatar: The Last Airbender and Legend of Korra had to really fight for the character Korra, because the Powers That Be at Nickelodeon didn't think a female character would be as marketable. There are no Disney execs in the picture you posted and this makes me happy (I know it's only one picture, but still).

When an artist gets an idea, they feel compelled to express it. For me, that's art at its most basic. Anything that gets in the way of that expression, as politically correct or incorrect as it might be, isn't good imo.

Anyway, this isn't something I want to get hung up on...
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 PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2014 3:23 pm Reply with quote  
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  Queen Padmè Skywalker
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From a female perspective, I'd rather there be no female characters in a film at all than for them to be present and exist only as one note love interests or eye candy. Fortunately, (with the exception of a particular slave outfit), this has been mostly avoided in Star Wars. Two good, well rounded female characters is more than most films give us.
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 PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2014 4:07 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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This will probably be my last post before I bow out of this topic (not Episode VII, just the gender imbalance). Things are getting pretty off-topic and I'm not even completely sure what we're discussing anymore. I just want to clear up some things, so no one gets the wrong impression about me.

I am not on the feminist's side or the patriarch's side or anyone in between. That's their battle. I tend to steer clear of firm opinions on gender roles/identity, sexual morality etc. for a number of reasons and they're not typically discussions I get involved in these days. I'm only on the side of creative freedom and that's the only thing I was arguing for. I have been thinking more about the inverse ratio scenario and while it would be strange because it would be so unexpected, unexpected ≠ bad. I also think having a female lead for a Star Wars film would be cool, especially if she's Jaina Solo. Cool

And finally, a lot of my annoyance stems from the fact that the Politically Correct Police will never be satisfied. They will see racism and sexism (and species-ism and everything-else-ism) wherever they want to see it - which is everywhere. I just get tired of it.
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 PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2014 6:37 pm Reply with quote  
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  DarthMRN
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Reepicheep wrote:
Let me clarify: I have no problem at all with artists collaborating. I just dislike when outside forces with non-artistic agendas force things that wouldn't have happened organically among artists. For me the primary culprits are business executives on one end and society's (i.e. the masses and minority groups) expectations/demands on the other. And btw I think these outside forces are, at least partially, to blame for the character gender inequality in film/TV. For example the co-creators of Avatar: The Last Airbender and Legend of Korra had to really fight for the character Korra, because the Powers That Be at Nickelodeon didn't think a female character would be as marketable. There are no Disney execs in the picture you posted and this makes me happy (I know it's only one picture, but still).

This is the one.

If I get angry at suits pushing commercial interests before those of artistry, thematics and continuity in a franchise I love, then I will get equally angry at political interest groups trying to push their agenda into it when it wasn't there before. These are the people who can make their own franchises based on those premises, instead of trying to piggyback onto the success of something else. Success not founded on those ideals.
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 PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 5:15 pm Reply with quote  
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  YodaBauer2442
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I recall the Avengers movie. Great movie, wasn't it? Yet when I heard people bemoan its faults, I heard that the problem was there was only one woman in there, not that she was being beaten up. I don't think this is as big a problem (or even a problem at all) as you're trying to make out.

My point was to long standing traditions in Hollywood. Avengers is a new film. It's a sign of changing times.

I've no doubt some people will. But until we actually get a movie with more than one woman, and in that specific set up, I'd say this talk of 'people will say catfight!' is rather pointless.

You are allowed to think so.

That said, Once Upon A Time does have that set up, and I hear no calls of catfight. Maybe the cheering of having more than one female main character, and well done ones at that, is drowning out those calls.

Again, something new. And a show with a younger demo in mind. (20 somethings that don't have the same longstanding views of stories. )

I'm not entirely sure what your point is, here.

My point is if you have a straight character of one gender and a straight character of another the audience won't be distracted by possible sexual tension. Which is a story choice a writer and/pr director might choose.

Not explicitly, though it was heavily implied.

What I said is it has been and therefore I have no problem if it continues to be so.

This isn't a thing I just thought of last week. I remember reading an interview with Lucas back when Indy 4 came out and he said he likes writing stories about fathers and sons which is why it's a heavy theme in Star Wars and Indiana Jones 3 and 4. Now, this was years ago and I'd now idea how to find this source again. So you can think I made it up if you want.

Still haven't answered my question, though.

Which question? The one about name a specific movie or whatever? Didn't answer it because it's answer wasn't relevant to the point I'm making.

But let's try another, similar question that does address previous points of yours: Why does the story demand that certain characters be male?

I have no clue what the story of Ep 7 is going so I can't answer your question right now. I can get back to you later if it means that much to you.

What I'd love to know is why you seem to think I want an all male cast?

Because, you know, gender is not a character trait.

It isn't? I thought hair color was too. Am I wrong about that? What about eye color?
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- Walter Bishop



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 PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 3:22 am Reply with quote  
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  Dog-Poop_Walker
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some serious stuff here. I'm not sure what is going on, but LIFE that youtube video sure cracked me up!
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 PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 4:44 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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Reepicheep wrote:


Let me clarify: I have no problem at all with artists collaborating. I just dislike when outside forces with non-artistic agendas force things that wouldn't have happened organically among artists. For me the primary culprits are business executives on one end and society's (i.e. the masses and minority groups) expectations/demands on the other. And btw I think these outside forces are, at least partially, to blame for the character gender inequality in film/TV. For example the co-creators of Avatar: The Last Airbender and Legend of Korra had to really fight for the character Korra, because the Powers That Be at Nickelodeon didn't think a female character would be as marketable. There are no Disney execs in the picture you posted and this makes me happy (I know it's only one picture, but still).

When an artist gets an idea, they feel compelled to express it. For me, that's art at its most basic. Anything that gets in the way of that expression, as politically correct or incorrect as it might be, isn't good imo.

Anyway, this isn't something I want to get hung up on...


Obviously, I disagree. It may be a blunt instrument, and one that can be used badly, but I think the end result is quite worth it.

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(with the exception of a particular slave outfit)
Don't forget Midriff Padmé.

Quote:
And finally, a lot of my annoyance stems from the fact that the Politically Correct Police will never be satisfied. They will see racism and sexism (and species-ism and everything-else-ism) wherever they want to see it - which is everywhere. I just get tired of it.


Politically Correct Police is not a thing. And it's rather disingenuous, as it implies that we're only getting angry for the sake of being angry. We're not. I think I've demonstrated that rather clearly. Trust me, we'd rather not be angry. We'd rather not have to worry about these things. We'd rather be able to just sit back and not have to worry, and enjoy the movie rather than rolling our eyes at the poorly written women. But we're not there yet. Not even close.

Quote:
My point was to long standing traditions in Hollywood. Avengers is a new film. It's a sign of changing times


And those are terrible traditions, which need to be challenged. And you rather missed my point. It's a new film, but with the same old problem.

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You are allowed to think so.


I'm so glad I have your permission.

Quote:
What I said is it has been and therefore I have no problem if it continues to be so.


You should really look up the definition of 'implied'.

And this isn't a thing I thought of last week, either. Lucas has been calling it the Skywalker Saga for years. Cherry picking much?

Quote:
What I'd love to know is why you seem to think I want an all male cast?


The only time I said 'all male' was to say that we don't live in an all white, all male world. Reading comprehension is not your strong suit, is it? But I think you've fairly shown that a diverse cast is not on your list of priorities, which is why I call you out on this.

Quote:
Which question? The one about name a specific movie or whatever? Didn't answer it because it's answer wasn't relevant to the point I'm making.


I've made it abundantly clear. Your refusal to take the time to read and comprehend my post makes it rather clear to me that you have no interest in listening and engaging in the topic. I'm done talking to you.

Quote:
some serious stuff here. I'm not sure what is going on, but LIFE that youtube video sure cracked me up!


I'm glad you liked it Smile . I love James Spader, and every time I hear the word 'lesbian' I think of that scene.
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 PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 10:02 am Reply with quote  
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  YodaBauer2442
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Your refusal to take the time to read and comprehend my post makes it rather clear to me that you have no interest in listening and engaging in the topic. I'm done talking to you.

Cool, I was going to tell you the same thing. I'm not exactly sure how anything I said was sexist. And it seems clear you think I'm an idiot.
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 PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 9:37 pm Reply with quote  
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  YodaBauer2442
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Just watched John Boyega in the first two episodes of the new 24 series. He wasn't in it a whole lot, but I can safely say at this point that I don't believe he's a terrible actor. I can't really say he's amazing because there wasn't a good showcase of talent scene for him. But he was a character I had instant sympathy for. So I think that bodes well for him in SW.

Is he supposed to be the Lead lead? Does anyone one know if the order of names announced has any bearing on place within the cast?
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"WHERE'S THE FIRE?! I've always loved that expression, which is curious since my lab assistant was killed in a fire."
- Walter Bishop



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 PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 7:41 am Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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Thus far they haven't said much on the importance of any roles, but it's rumored that Harrison Ford is suppose to have a substantial role in the film.
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 PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 12:22 pm Reply with quote  
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  YodaBauer2442
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Total and complete speculation: I think Han is the most likely of the big 3 to die. Wouldn't surprise me if they gave him a lot of screen time in this as a send off.
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"WHERE'S THE FIRE?! I've always loved that expression, which is curious since my lab assistant was killed in a fire."
- Walter Bishop



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