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 PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:21 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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The other day I was thinking about how the Big 3 should be used in the ST now that they're past their prime, specifically how powerful they should be.

Most of us are used to older characters kicking butt thanks to the EU and the PT. In the real world people hit their physical prime in their 20s and 30s and are usually on a slow decline from there, but thanks to the Force, Star Wars characters generally get more and more powerful as they age. However, before this precedent was set, older characters in the OT were typically more chill. Obi-Wan tells Luke that he needs to rescue Princess Leia and help the Rebel Alliance fight the Empire, because he's "getting too old for this sort of thing", Yoda never fights, and even Palpatine only shoots lightning at Luke and is then easily picked up up by Darth Vader and thrown down a reactor shaft. In retrospect, Obi-Wan's line about being too old is odd. Obi-Wan was only about 57 in ANH. In the EU, Luke was an extremely powerful Jedi at that age. In the PT Count Dooku was a very powerful Sith Lord as an old man (assuming I'm doing my math right the Wook says he was 83 kriffing years old in RotS!), not to mention Yoda and Palpatine. I always reconciled this with the idea that the events of RotS made Obi-Wan (and possibly Yoda) age prematurely.

Now that the EU is no longer recognized as "canon" and the PT is quietly being disowned, I wonder if the Big 3 - specifically Luke - will have more of an OT Obi-Wan status power-wise rather than where he was in the EU.

If Luke is an ultra-powerful Jedi, then that could be a problem for the ST. Why doesn't Luke deal with the new threat instead of Rey and/or Finn? There are ways around this, of course: Luke could be killed, he could be unable to fight the new villain without going over to the dark side like in LotF, or he could be otherwise incapacitated.

Just thinking out loud. What do you guys think?
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 PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:20 pm Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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You know ... I'm not so fond of the 'Tatooine sun took its toll' explanation. I think it's more of a case of Ben simply saying that to Luke as a spur, to get the boy into action.
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 PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:27 pm Reply with quote  
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  Skywalker2B
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According to some rumors, Luke will be uber powerful and in seclusion out of fear of falling to the dark side and being a menace to the galaxy. But an evil has arisen that will require Luke's help to defeat, thus Rey and Finn and Han go looking for him.

I've also read a rumor where Luke IS the big bad guy of the movie but you don't find that out until near the end...sort of like the big "I am your father" moment.

In either of those cases, it seems like Luke will be somewhat powerful for his age. But powerful doesn't necessarily mean acrobatic and nimble. Like Yoda and Palps, he may not "need" to use his saber to fight. He could have such a command of the force that a blade is not needed. Perhaps he'll have Starkiller level powers?

I don't know.


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 PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 3:27 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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^ I like the first rumour, hate the second. I will be enraged if Luke becomes the villain.

@Life: That's possible.

At least in the OT, there seemed to have been a distinction between physical prowess and Force prowess. I get the sense that Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Palpatine are still powerful in the Force, and likely more powerful than when they were younger, but would be pretty useless in a lightsaber fight or other physical conflict (as Obi-Wan proved Razz ). That's what I would infer from the OT in isolation, not considering the EU or the PT.
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 PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 6:01 pm Reply with quote  
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  GrandMaster
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^I've always thought that since Obi-Wan and Yoda have been in exile for almost 2 decades, their sword-fighting skills have atrophied.

Really, the issue is the changing timeline - at the time of the Thrawn trilogy, it was believed that the Clone Wars were much further in the past than we saw in the prequels, so Obi-Wan was probably thought of as a lot older than 57.
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 PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:51 pm Reply with quote  
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  DarthMRN
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Annotated Screenplays p. 214 wrote:
The idea of Vader using telekinetic powers during his fight with Luke was created during story meetings. There was concern, however, that the audience might think back to the first film and wonder why Vader didn't use all his powers on Ben; but this was easily explained by the fact that Ben was probably stronger than Vader. George Lucas and Leigh Brackett also discussed the different levels of the Force; maybe Ben was a six, Vader was a four, Luke is now at level two.


This was the intent behind ESB, and it shows a pretty clear correlation between age and power even back then. But since you aren't being clear whether you are just talking about lightsaber acrobatics or full combat potential, I don't know how relevant it is.
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 PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:58 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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GrandMaster wrote:
^I've always thought that since Obi-Wan and Yoda have been in exile for almost 2 decades, their sword-fighting skills have atrophied.

Really, the issue is the changing timeline - at the time of the Thrawn trilogy, it was believed that the Clone Wars were much further in the past than we saw in the prequels, so Obi-Wan was probably thought of as a lot older than 57.


Not a lot older. My copy of the 1998 Annual puts his birth at 60 BSW4, and the end of the Clone Wars at 35 BSW4. (BSW4 = BBY)

(Also, it places the fall of the Republic at 29 BSW4, along with the birth of Han Solo. The formation of the Empire at 18 BSW4, along with the birth of Luke and Leia and the 'birth' of Vader.)
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 PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 7:50 am Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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DarthMRN wrote:
Annotated Screenplays p. 214 wrote:
The idea of Vader using telekinetic powers during his fight with Luke was created during story meetings. There was concern, however, that the audience might think back to the first film and wonder why Vader didn't use all his powers on Ben; but this was easily explained by the fact that Ben was probably stronger than Vader. George Lucas and Leigh Brackett also discussed the different levels of the Force; maybe Ben was a six, Vader was a four, Luke is now at level two.

Out of curiosity who wrote this?
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 PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 5:42 pm Reply with quote  
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  GrandMaster
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Life Is The Path wrote:
GrandMaster wrote:
^I've always thought that since Obi-Wan and Yoda have been in exile for almost 2 decades, their sword-fighting skills have atrophied.

Really, the issue is the changing timeline - at the time of the Thrawn trilogy, it was believed that the Clone Wars were much further in the past than we saw in the prequels, so Obi-Wan was probably thought of as a lot older than 57.


Not a lot older. My copy of the 1998 Annual puts his birth at 60 BSW4, and the end of the Clone Wars at 35 BSW4. (BSW4 = BBY)

(Also, it places the fall of the Republic at 29 BSW4, along with the birth of Han Solo. The formation of the Empire at 18 BSW4, along with the birth of Luke and Leia and the 'birth' of Vader.)


Interesting - so the end of the Clone Wars moved a lot (16 years), but not Obi-Wan's birth.

How did they explain the 9 years between the fall of the Republic and the formation of the Empire?
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"Shaken, not stirred, will get you cold water with a dash of gin and dry vermouth. The reason you stir it with a special spoon is so not to chip the ice. James is ordering a weak martini and being snooty about it."


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 PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 10:08 pm Reply with quote  
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  DarthMRN
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Reepicheep wrote:
Out of curiosity who wrote this?


http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Annotated_Screenplays
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 PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 10:45 pm Reply with quote  
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  Queen Padmè Skywalker
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As long as Luke isn't powerful to the point of ridiculousness, I won't do much complaining. I recall an instance from what I'm pretty sure was the Courtship of Princess Leia where his ship exploded and he...placed himself in stasis and floated down to the planet's surface? At that point, you start to wonder if a character can even be killed and you cease to worry for them.
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 PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 1:33 am Reply with quote  
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  GrandMaster
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^The Courtship of Princess Leia is pretty ridiculous all around. Leia swoons too easily for Isolder, Han kidnaps Leia with a mind-control gun, and Luke is more powerful than he is in the Thrawn trilogy one year later.
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"But it was so artistically done."

“No. I am Ganner. This threshold is mine. I claim it for my own. Bring on your thousands, one at a time or all in a rush. I don’t give a damn. None shall pass.”

"Shaken, not stirred, will get you cold water with a dash of gin and dry vermouth. The reason you stir it with a special spoon is so not to chip the ice. James is ordering a weak martini and being snooty about it."


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 PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 6:07 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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GrandMaster wrote:

How did they explain the 9 years between the fall of the Republic and the formation of the Empire?


It doesn't say much, but here's what it has to say:

- 35 BSW4 End of the Clone Wars, a violent conflict in which the Jedi Knights fight to defend the Old Republic. Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin skywalker emerge as heroes.

- 29 BSW4 Birth of Han Solo in the Corellian star system. Fall of the Republic. A dark period when corruption and injustice sweep through the Republic. Senator Palpatine rises to power.

- 18 BSW4 Birth of Luke Skywalker and Leia Organa, who are put into hiding. Anakin Skywalker becomes Darth Vader; the Empire is formed, with Palpatine as Emperor. The first stirrings of Rebellion begin.

Some other interesting titbits: It doesn't say when the Clone Wars started. It also puts Anakin's date of birth at 55 BSW4.

The annual also has a recap of the films. The last sentence of which is:
Quote:
The young Jedi Knight [Luke] fervently hopes that oppression and cruelty have now given way to peace and harmony in the galaxy. But who knows? Only time will tell ...

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I am a Star Wars fan. That doesn't mean that I hate or love Jar Jar. That doesn't mean I hate or love Lucas, or agree or disagree 100% with him. That doesn't mean I prefer the PT over the OT, or vice versa. That doesn't mean I hate the EU, or even love all of it (or even read all of it). These are not prerequisites. Being a man is not a prerequisite. Being a geek is not a prerequisite. The only prerequisite is that I love something about Star Wars. I am a Star Wars fan.


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 PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:21 am Reply with quote  
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  Mara Jade Skywalker
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GrandMaster wrote:
^The Courtship of Princess Leia is pretty ridiculous all around. Leia swoons too easily for Isolder, Han kidnaps Leia with a mind-control gun, and Luke is more powerful than he is in the Thrawn trilogy one year later.


And it's still my favorite! Very Happy
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