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Star Wars: The Clone Wars Season 6 - The Lost Missions
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 PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:24 am Reply with quote  
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  Taral-DLOS
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^^ Point taken.
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 PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 12:08 am Reply with quote  
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  YodaBauer2442
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It's a 22 minute per episode TV show. Not a novel or a reference guide. I'd be bored if they took the time on screen to explain all the details. That's what reference guides are for. Not that we're likely to get them because I think LucasFilm's new MO is to sweep anything PT era under the rug.

Not to mention the show was canceled. There's nothing saying the final episodes were even supposed to be the final episodes. I don't think the Lost Missions can really be treated like a normal series finale.

I absolutely loved the end. I was so engrossed in the final arc. Even though it may not have been their intention I thought it was perfect that the series opened with a Yoda-centric episode and closed with a Yoda-centric episode. I definitely felt a profound sense of sadness that the show was pulled when it was only getting better as it went. I mean, even Jar Jar centric episodes were fun. That's saying something.
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 PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 5:26 am Reply with quote  
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  DarthMRN
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It is a sad state of affairs when franchise fans expect primary media to not make sense, because making stuff sensible is the role of the EU.

Your other point is a bit better, in that we could theoretically have gotten resolutions for stuff in later episodes. But on the other hand, given that the primary audience for TV traditionally have been viewers tuning in normally, and that such follow-up episodes can have years between them, each arc really should be self-contained enough that once you have seen it, you can lay it to rest without *needing* later episodes.

Again, it's supposed to be kid-friendly. Not Game of Thrones.
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 PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:00 am Reply with quote  
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  YodaBauer2442
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It is a sad state of affairs when franchise fans expect primary media to not make sense, because making stuff sensible is the role of the EU.

I never said I don't expect it to make sense. I thought the episodes in terms of their own contained stories made sense. Yes there are lingering questions. But those could be expanded upon more. And would we really want everything in the series fully explained and developed? Maybe I am a minority but I like some thing left to my own imagination and interpretation. There was no lack of information in those episodes that left me unable to follow what was going on.

Your other point is a bit better, in that we could theoretically have gotten resolutions for stuff in later episodes. But on the other hand, given that the primary audience for TV traditionally have been viewers tuning in normally, and that such follow-up episodes can have years between them, each arc really should be self-contained enough that once you have seen it, you can lay it to rest without *needing* later episodes.

Well then how do you define an arc? If a story can expand outside of a single episodes how many episodes is too much where the show should be able to tell it in less episodes? There are many many shows throughout television history that let stories grow over seasons. Not just recent ones and not just dramas.

Again, it's supposed to be kid-friendly. Not Game of Thrones.

Kid accessible to be sure. And there were definitely episodes that only kids would really like. It had it's share of complex arcs as well.
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"WHERE'S THE FIRE?! I've always loved that expression, which is curious since my lab assistant was killed in a fire."
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 PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:41 am Reply with quote  
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  Proudfoot
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Haven't seen any of the final season yet (not sure when they'll be available in the UK) but I have a question for people who have seen it.

This Morriband thing is really bugging me. Do you think that there is any way that Korriban can still exist in the same capacity after these episodes, or is Morriband just Korriban under another name?

If it's the latter, I really cannot contemplate a reason that they would make such a change. Although I don't like it, in some ways I can understand their desire to change the continuity that the EU established around the time of the movies and post-ROTJ. Korriban however is something rooted across all medias of the EU. Why not just use the pre-established planet, I just don't get it.
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 PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:48 am Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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Morriband could go either way. On one hand, it would be really easy to say it's just another one of the Sith's fabled homeworlds. They lived on Ziost and Korriban, so why not add Morriband to the list? Morriban and Korriban are very similar visually, so if they needed to retcon anything, that would be real easy to do.

The question is whether they're even going to bother with retcons and clarifications. Pablo and Leland have been very quiet lately. No one wants to say or do anything until Episode VII comes out. That's a long wait to find out how the EU coincides with Morriband.
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 PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:48 pm Reply with quote  
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  1337Jedi
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I know I'm late to this convo but..... Wait we're still doing spoiler tags for this?! In that case
Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)

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 PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:13 am Reply with quote  
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  YodaBauer2442
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Regarding Morriban/Korriban an argument can be made that it's not even a physical place. I'm still not convinced that that arc wasn't 90% Force Vision.

The question is whether they're even going to bother with retcons and clarifications. Pablo and Leland have been very quiet lately. No one wants to say or do anything until Episode VII comes out. That's a long wait to find out how the EU coincides with Morriband.

Also this. I don't think they will either. And I think what will happen is SW will now be multiple universes like almost every other major scifi franchise.

And 1337Jedi, I completely agree. I like that the Jedi were not as foolish as the films made them seem. They're still seen as weak in RotS because their blindness up until TPM hurt them. There's something tragic about them not seeing the net until it was cast. But at least they aren't total fools.
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"WHERE'S THE FIRE?! I've always loved that expression, which is curious since my lab assistant was killed in a fire."
- Walter Bishop



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 PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 1:21 pm Reply with quote  
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  DarthMRN
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YodaBauer2442 wrote:
I thought the episodes in terms of their own contained stories made sense. Yes there are lingering questions. But those could be expanded upon more. And would we really want everything in the series fully explained and developed? Maybe I am a minority but I like some thing left to my own imagination and interpretation. There was no lack of information in those episodes that left me unable to follow what was going on.

Then I submit you have an extremely low treshold for what "was going on" means. As far as I could tell, the minimum thereof these episodes gave us was a chronological sequence of events that followed each other in an understandable fashion. That's it. What the underlying premises and ultimate points of the arcs were was not elaborated upon to satisfaction, however. If the point of the clones arc was to explain how the clones came to be or how they were constructed mentally, it didn't do that. If the point of the Yoda arc was to show why he gave up against Sids in RotS or why the Jedi were so stupid, it barely hinted at that.

Seems that by your logic, the only way these episodes could fail at telling their own stories, would be the equivalent of Ani being at the Jedi temple in one scene, then on a random planet fighting a Nightsister and Dooku at once in the next scene, with no explation. A logical sequence of events following from one another, but missing surrounding details required for the whole to make sense, does not a self-contained story make IMO.

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Well then how do you define an arc? If a story can expand outside of a single episodes how many episodes is too much where the show should be able to tell it in less episodes? There are many many shows throughout television history that let stories grow over seasons. Not just recent ones and not just dramas.

Nope. You don't get to use black-and-white logic on a matter of degree. Yes, TV shows frequently leave stuff unexplained or infuse prior events with larger meaning in order to get payoff later. But the arcs tend to be self-contained nevertheless, which is done by satisfying a minimum of the required information. You can have the protagonists fight a bad guy with motives explainable by greed, and in later seasons it turns out he was part of an evil organization and that greed was to serve some larger nefarious end. You didn't need to know that for the original villains motives and actions to make sense. He was a greedy bad guy, end of story.

In a TCW context, that would be letting the audience know that Dooku was in fact the one who ordered the clone army, just using Sifo-Dyas known and understandable desire for an army as a cover. Self-contained. Then later seasons could infuse greater meaning into this by revealing that Sidious was responsible for Sifo having that desire to begin with. The point is that is would have made sense on its own, which the current arc doesn't, since it doesn't reveal enough to form a clear minimum picture of events.

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Kid accessible to be sure. And there were definitely episodes that only kids would really like. It had it's share of complex arcs as well.

I don't understand the term kid-friendly to mean "Jar Jar episode". I understand it to mean, here is a plot that is simple enough that the kids can follow it, while leaving room for details above and beyond this for adults who want to satisfy greater requirements of realism in their viewing of the same material. When even dedicated adult fans have to wring their brain in analysis, interpretation and theorizing just to understand the premise the action is dependent upon, that doesn't qualify as kid-friendly IMO.
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 PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:33 pm Reply with quote  
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  YodaBauer2442
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If the point of the clones arc was to explain how the clones came to be or how they were constructed mentally, it didn't do that.

If you're talking about just season 6 arc, I didn't take that as being the point of the arc at all. The Order 66 arc had nothing to do with Ordering the Clones. It had everything to do with Order 66.

If you're talking about the Syfo episode too, that was another matter. And no, that mystery was not 100% cleared up. But we did know that Dooku and Syfo were working in tandem. To what capacity we don't know and can't really know. But I hardly think it's as confusing as you think it is, if you're willing to inference and not have everything spelled out for you from start to finish.

If the point of the Yoda arc was to show why he gave up against Sids in RotS or why the Jedi were so stupid, it barely hinted at that.

The point of the Yoda arc was why can only some Jedi be Force Ghosts and how do they do that. What makes you think it has anything to do with why he gave up fighting Sidious? And it made the Jedi look less stupid.
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"WHERE'S THE FIRE?! I've always loved that expression, which is curious since my lab assistant was killed in a fire."
- Walter Bishop



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 PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:22 am Reply with quote  
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  DarthMRN
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YodaBauer2442 wrote:
If you're talking about just season 6 arc, I didn't take that as being the point of the arc at all. The Order 66 arc had nothing to do with Ordering the Clones. It had everything to do with Order 66.

If you're talking about the Syfo episode too, that was another matter.

And yet neither was explained.

Quote:
But I hardly think it's as confusing as you think it is, if you're willing to inference and not have everything spelled out for you from start to finish.

The problem you run into by painting this as being about my lack of comprehension, is that I will challenge you to tell me the answers, and you'll be forced to back it up with not elaborate, but simple, guesswork and inference. I posted a long list if questions earlier in the thread: Get to it.

Padme and Ani hugging at the end of their spat is inference that they got over it -somehow. Dooku having some connnection with Sifo is not inference of which one of them ordered the army. A bunch of different properties attributed to the clone chip does not infer which ones are actually present and which are lies concocted by desperate bad guys.

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The point of the Yoda arc was why can only some Jedi be Force Ghosts and how do they do that.

Um, no, that is the only thing it didn't. The whole thing was a test of worthiness for Yoda. At the end all the Priestesses told him was that now Quigs could teach him the techique. We still know zero more about how exactly one becomes a ghost. It can't be too difficult, though, since Ani learned it after death. And neither he nor Obi had to go through a spiritual pilgrimage to do so.

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What makes you think it has anything to do with why he gave up fighting Sidious?

Because of Quigs paraphrase "The Clone Wars may be a lost cause, but there is another way. There is another Skywalker hope". Speaking of inferences, what I inferred from that was that Yoda was well aware the Clone Wars might eradicate the Jedi, by clone betrayal no less, but he wasn't allowed to warn them, making him look like a total douche. But it would make better sense of his desicion to flee in RotS (though not his attempt on Palp's life in the first place), it just wasn't made clear. It can be interpreted in a number of ways, making it decidedly kid-unfriendly as far as inferences go.
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 PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:31 am Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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DarthMRN, outside Star Wars literature, when has Star Wars ever explained everything completely in a visual medium? All six films and the entire run of TCW have always left unanswered questions. George Lucas is a storyteller that likes to leave unanswered questions. Just look at the Prequels, they're full of stuff that has no background or context, things that are never fully explored or detailed in the films.

I certainly never went into watching TCW expecting it to answer everything and wrap it all up neatly with a little bow on top.

All that aside, what was everyone's favorite arc from Season 6?
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 PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:46 am Reply with quote  
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  DarthMRN
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I answered that earlier in the thread. That I thought the lower canon level of TCW -for the sake of giving people more competent than Lucas greater power over the production- meant we wouldn't get the classic SW treatment of critical plot holes and lack of information. And that the only positive thing I could say about it, was that at least it was in the spirit of SW, for better or worse.
Imagine those story conferences: "Let's leave critical stuff unexplained, even when specifically elaborating on holes left by the movies". "Yes, great idea! The fans love it when there are no clear answers, and they have to fill in the blanks themselves!"

In any case, the current conversation has less to do with my expectations, and more with YodaBauer contending this stuff makes reasonable sense after all.
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 PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:51 am Reply with quote  
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  Taral-DLOS
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DarthMRN wrote:
I answered that earlier in the thread. That I thought the lower canon level of TCW -for the sake of giving people more competent than Lucas greater power over the production- meant we wouldn't get the classic SW treatment of critical plot holes and lack of information. And that the only positive thing I could say about it, was that at least it was in the spirit of SW, for better or worse.
Imagine those story conferences: "Let's leave critical stuff unexplained, even when specifically elaborating on holes left by the movies". "Yes, great idea! The fans love it when there are no clear answers, and they have to fill in the blanks themselves!"

In any case, the current conversation has less to do with my expectations, and more with YodaBauer contending this stuff makes reasonable sense after all.


As far as I recall, TCW isn't a lower canon level. We were told early on (though not immediately) that T-canon is identical to G-canon, and that TCW should be treated with the same weight as the movies.
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-Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear


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 PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:16 pm Reply with quote  
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  YodaBauer2442
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All that aside, what was everyone's favorite arc from Season 6?

Definitely the Yoda arc. I loved the symmetry with the first episode of the series (not counting the movie.) It's a strange bit of fortune too, considering it wasn't planned on being the end of the series.

Did anyone else see this article? http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/03/18/star-wars-the-clone-wars-dave-filoni-looks-back-at-season-6-and-the-shows-final-episodes?page=1
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"WHERE'S THE FIRE?! I've always loved that expression, which is curious since my lab assistant was killed in a fire."
- Walter Bishop



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