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 PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:52 pm Reply with quote  
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  Salaris Vorn
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Autobon wrote:
Salaris Vorn wrote:
Whoa, put on the brakes there. It sounds like you are assuming that homosexuals by their nature hurt people like pedophiles, and that is outright untrue and offensive.


I did not assume that by nature homosexuals hurt people. Read what i said again. I said that if you believe you are not to judge others, then why judge people like pedophiles for example. And not all pedophiles "hurt" people. There are those who just sit at home and go on forums or look up things about it. And yes, it is perverted, and i think homosexuality is too. That is the link i was trying to make, that people say dont judge people for thier 'sexual orientation.' I was pointing out that some things do need to be judged.

Sorry if my message didnt come across as clearly as i would have hoped. I do not and have not ever believed homosexuals are hurtful to others by nature. I wish you would have asked me to clarify before accusing me of things i dont believe.


My apologies for misunderstanding your intent and wrongly accusing you. I can see now how you were trying to explain it as judging others. However, at the time it did not come across clearly (I think because mentioning judging people was only at the end of the statement it came across more as a sarcastic comment than pointing out how some things do need to be judged).

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Quote:
there is no consensus of homosexuality is bad in religions


No there is not. I pointed out some big religions that do believe it is. I pointed it out because I wanted to show how large a group is affected. And as for Native Americans, Hindus, etc. I have no idea if they believe it in or not. If you could find some links or something that would be appreciated, because i dont know much about those groups.


Well off the top of my head I believe the Navajo are one of the groups that accepts homosexuality (as I recall they actually have something like 6 gender identities). I believe there are also some other Southwest groups that believe that as well but I forget which ones. I don't have the time right now to check but would be happy to as soon as I have some more time
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 PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 8:01 pm Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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Salaris Vorn wrote:
My apologies for misunderstanding your intent and wrongly accusing you. I can see now how you were trying to explain it as judging others.


Thanks. I shouldnt have used that exact example anyways.


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 PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:44 am Reply with quote  
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  FatalFist
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Hinduism doesnt endorse homosexuality either.....
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 PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:47 pm Reply with quote  
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  Old Master Ben
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]I'm a Christian too but I completely disagree. One we are America home of the free. Telling people they can't get married is wrong just because they are homosexuals. I know that God looks down on homosexuality but he is the Judge not me and he commanded all of us not to judge one another.


I hate to go back to this previous point, but I had something quick to add in. As a Christian, why would you put what America thinks before God. America's society and culture are founded on being "free." But America's society and culture (and I think we can all agree on this) are very screwed up at the moment. For example, America may say that having sex out of marriage, getting intoxicated (and no, I don't think drinking is a sin Smile ) and violence are okay, but God says that these things are not. Do we go by what America says, which in one sense is to have all the fun (and by this I mean the wrong kind of fun) you want because you are "free" or by what God says.

If we suddenly had a law in America that we can kill and get away with it, would you say "well, America is the home of the free, so it's okay."?

God clearly says that homosexuality is wrong. America says that as free people, it is perfectly right. Who's judgment do you place first on the matter?


Last edited by Old Master Ben on Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:45 pm; edited 1 time in total


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 PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 4:06 pm Reply with quote  
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  Mara Jade Skywalker
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You make a great point, OMB. If we claim to be Christians, one would think that first we would follow His rules, and not America's. If America's laws abide within God's laws, then they're perfectly fine. If they abide outside of them, then I have to follow God first. The Bible specifically says to obey the law of your land, but only until it disobeys His laws. There you can disagree with your country. Same with any authority figure. God says to obey your parents. And you are supposed to do so at all times, unless they tell you to do something that is against one of God's laws. Then you may disobey, because your authority reverts back to God in that case.

Sooo...all that to say that just because America is the 'land of the free' doesn't mean that we should be allowed to do whatsoever we please.

Now...if you're not a Christian, and/or you don't believe in God...then I suppose you would have to follow your own authority structure. But proclaiming Christians, those who claim to believe in God, should follow His word. We can't just bump if off on, 'Oh, well...we can't judge one another' or 'Well my country says it's okay.'

And I don't mean to slam anyone in particular. Sorry if I've offended anyone. I simply wanted to bring up things that had actually been mentioned. So...yeah.
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 PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:38 pm Reply with quote  
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  Anakinlover89
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I have to admit I am a little offended. We shouldn't look down on people just because of their sexual orientation. I know some people find it disgusting and I know that God says it's wrong but I don't think God would want us to act this way about it. I find it interesting that you all have used old testament passages to make your point across. John 3:16 is one such passage "For God so Loved the World that he gave his one and only son that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." If a gay person believes this passaage they are going to go to heaven no matter what their lifestyles are. So why should we tell them how to live when if they believe this they are going to go to heaven anyway. I have alot of gay friends and I can't tell them how to live I mean because I do things that are not viewed good in God's eyes either.
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 PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:12 pm Reply with quote  
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  Old Master Ben
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Anakinlover89 wrote:
I have to admit I am a little offended. We shouldn't look down on people just because of their sexual orientation. I know some people find it disgusting and I know that God says it's wrong but I don't think God would want us to act this way about it. I find it interesting that you all have used old testament passages to make your point across. John 3:16 is one such passage "For God so Loved the World that he gave his one and only son that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." If a gay person believes this passaage they are going to go to heaven no matter what their lifestyles are. So why should we tell them how to live when if they believe this they are going to go to heaven anyway. I have alot of gay friends and I can't tell them how to live I mean because I do things that are not viewed good in God's eyes either.


If I'm understanding this correctly, than I find your post more than a little offensive. You're telling me that you can quote John 3:16, which explains the greatest act of love EVER, and still feel like we don't owe God our obedience. I mean, come on! It's the very least we can do. How exactly would God want us to act. Would he say "I've saved your soul, when really, I could have left you all to die, but please, after you except the fact that I did this for you, go and sin all you want. Ignore my commands. Don't lead by example." Being homosexual is not a "lifestyle." It's a sin. Personally, I'm not sure if you can have anymore control over being gay than you can over having lustful thoughts about a woman. But as a gay Christian, your friends can do what Christians who do have lustful thoughts do. Don't divulge in the sin. I know a police officer who's a Christian, who will not put himself into a situation where it is just him and a lady. He knows that, as a sinner, he's going to be tempted. So he attempts to avoid the sin. And that's what a law against homosexual marriage is about for Christians. No, you can't make a gay man stop having gay thoughts any more than you can stop a straight man. But, I'd say that not even allowing homosexuals to marry is a pretty big step to stopping some of the other sins they would commit. It's a way to control the sin. And there are other things that gays can do too. Like I said, you can't help it if you are gay. It's a sin you have, and everyone sins. But you can control the sin.

Marriage between a man and woman is a great way to stop the man or woman from sinning in other sexual ways. That's one reason we have it. And it's one reason that homosexuals should not, unless they feel that as Christians, they can divulge in as much sin as they want. Which, technically, they can. But I think they owe God a lot more.

Sorry for preaching.
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 PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:20 pm Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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Anakinlover89 wrote:
I find it interesting that you all have used old testament passages to make your point across


Ok. here are some new Testament passages. Romans 1:26-27-

"Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."

There are other verses as well. And I also have to point out. Sin is sin, regardless of what book of the bible you are reading.

Quote:
John 3:16 is one such passage "For God so Loved the World that he gave his one and only son that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."


Part of becoming a Christian is that you change your behavior (this involves doing things for the lord, not only not sinning but thats for a different thread). If you are involved in things that the bible deems sinful, and then you become a christian and live the exact same way, I have to wonder, do you honestly care or believe what the bible says?

And another passage that i would show your gay Christian friends. This comes from 2nd Peter: 2

"If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them"


So I am sorry you find this offensive, but there is nothing i can do about that. If we call ourselves Christians then we have to act like Christians. You cant sit there knowing your friends are engaged in certain things that even you admit the bible is against, and not say or do anything about it. If its wrong, then really. Study up on homosexuality and what they bible says about it, and talk with you friends. As a Chrisian, you are not supposed to have a casual neutral stance towards things. Jesus didnt.

Old Master Ben wrote:
Sorry for preaching


Actually thank you. Your posts always give me some new material to work with.


Last edited by Autobon on Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:07 pm; edited 1 time in total


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 PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:13 am Reply with quote  
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  FatalFist
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Ok I might be drifting out of topic here a bit...but the point does came around.
Imagine a REAL NICE AND GRACIOUS person not a Christian...(for me Im imagining a gr8 person not Muslim(((for e-g Mother Teresa)...Will they not go to Heaven...do gud ppl enter paradise irrespective of their religon???.....reaaly tough....
The Biggest sin in every religon is NOt worshipping the true GOD....isnt it???
And u see reaaaly nice ppl but different religons.....
________________________________
If a gay person does sin...imagine that gay person as a reaaaallly amazing human being in every sense....We wont exactly be that judgemental on him then wud we???
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 PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:31 pm Reply with quote  
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  Old Master Ben
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I believe that it is pretty black and white. You get saved, you go to Heaven. You try to win your way there by being a really "good person", but don't get saved, and it doesn't work. Personally, I'd rather just except something like Jesus being a savior than that I have to be almost perfect my whole life to get to Heaven.

That's just me though.


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 PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:52 pm Reply with quote  
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  Anakinlover89
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Ok so your telling me, who's bisexual, that I am basically going to go to hell and that I'm disobeying God. Ok number one you are being really judgemental, I go to church every sunday and I have talked to my own Pastor about my sexual orientation. I know that it is not socially acceptable but God is going to forgive me. Yes John 3:16 is about love, love for everyone sinners and righteos people which you all seem to be. And just to let you know Jesus himself says in
Matthew 9: 12 12On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'[a] For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
Jesus came for the homosexuals, he came for the lierrs, the thieves. He came for everyone and that is why I feel confident that God will always be with me.
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 PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:59 pm Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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Anakinlover89 wrote:
Ok so your telling me, who's bisexual, that I am basically going to go to hell


No, nobody said that. Its true, if you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, then yes your a Christian. Lets stick with things people actually said Wink

Quote:
Ok number one you are being really judgemental


No thats not really true. I can have a belief and share that with you. If you dont want to believe it fine, but to call me judgemental like I am some really inconsiderate person is really not fair. If you disagree with my points, then by all means quote me and tell me whats wrong with what i said. And before we go any further, i want to say this. I have no problem with you as a person. I am sure you are a wonderful human being, and i love talking about star wars and whatever else with you. So if you feel that i am attacking you personally, please know that i am not. I am only debating your views.

Quote:
I'm disobeying God


Yes i think you are. I have pointed verses out to you, none of which you responded to, that specifically pointed out the wrong in homosexuality. And others such as Old Master Ben have responded to your versus of Jesus loving everyone. We have said that while Jesus loves everyone, he hates sin, HATES it. And i have pointed out many verses where he has called others to repent. Thats part of salvation, if you believe what they bible says.

Seriously. Give me one person that Jesus accepted as they were. Please, find one person. As far as i am concerened everyone was sorry for the things they had done and repented. And they turned away from their old ways.

Quote:
talked to my own Pastor about my sexual orientation


If your paster thinks thats ok, then i strongly disagree with his view. And even though he said its ok, doesnt make it so. I enourage your pastor to actually read verses of the bible that talk about these kind of things. I have pointed out many myself that are against homosexuality, and there are even more about sexual immorality in general. If i could i would love to point those out to him or her and ask them how they can ignore it.


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 PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:25 pm Reply with quote  
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  Anakinlover89
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My Pastor is one of the most trained ministers I have ever met. He was in school for 8 years learning how to be a minister. I'm a Lutheran a member of the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod. I think he knows what he's talking about more than you do, number one he's a trained minister. Also i really don't like being put down for your sexuality, how would you like it. I mean I could say your being a freak for not being bisexual, but no I don't do that. I accept everyones different sexual orientations.
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 PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:30 pm Reply with quote  
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  Salaris Vorn
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FatalFist wrote:
Ok I might be drifting out of topic here a bit...but the point does came around.
Imagine a REAL NICE AND GRACIOUS person not a Christian...(for me Im imagining a gr8 person not Muslim(((for e-g Mother Teresa)...Will they not go to Heaven...do gud ppl enter paradise irrespective of their religon???.....reaaly tough....
The Biggest sin in every religon is NOt worshipping the true GOD....isnt it???
And u see reaaaly nice ppl but different religons.....
________________________________
If a gay person does sin...imagine that gay person as a reaaaallly amazing human being in every sense....We wont exactly be that judgemental on him then wud we???
_______________________
The World aint black and white....thats all IM saying)))


I'd just like to chime in as someone who is not a Christian since you raise an interesting point. Before I go further I would also like to say that I believe there is some higher power call it God, the Creator, Allah, whatever, I just choose not to affiliate myself with any specific religion.

Now I have been approached before and told that despite believing in there being something and despite doing my best to be a good person I will go to hell unless I convert to Christianity. Now this is my take as an outsider but I always got pretty PO'd to be told this, and quite frankly after being told that, always found it harder to believe the idea that God is loving yet will condemn all decent people who happen to believe wrong. I figure that's got to be well over half the human population.

This is just a non-Christians take on the whole "loving God thing" as relates to the whole heaven/hell thing. I don't mean to offend anyone either, I just wanted to add my two cents based on my experiences.

And again I would like to point out that there is a difference between legal marriage and religious marriage. And according to American law legal marriage for gays is fine, and to obstruct it would be unconstitutional. Maybe I've missed the point of the whole gay marriage debate so far, but I think that needs to be distinguished.
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 PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:59 pm Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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I was raised a Christian, but my church has always sort of shunned me. Call me there best kept secret. I'm the one they were never all that proud of. I believe that there is a higher power and that he watches out for us, but I as well don't always see myself as part of a single religion (though I lean towards Christianity). I was slightly homophobic for quite a long time, but I was forced to rethink my position when I learned that one of my friends is gay. I'm still one of the only three people that know. I thought about it and tried to pinpoint what it was that I found wrong about it and other than a passage in the Bible I found nothing. I don't believe that homosexuality or bisexuality are a sin. Even though the Bible says its a sin, it also says that God accepts all his children, no matter what. Its slightly contradictory and I don't believe that the Bible is all God. I'm fairly sure that human writers, even though they wrote His words, still didn't get it 100% right. Me personally, I'm straight as an arrow, but I no longer feel animosity or even just apathy towards those who prefer to be otherwise. Its easy to condemn it until you have to face it with someone close to you. Then you open up and realize that while its different and the Bible calls it a sin, its their choice (no, I don't believe that its biological...its a choice, but its still theirs). No one should show any sort of judgement towards anyone because they are different. Racism, homophobia, social status, these are things that humanity uses to seperate itself into different factions. It makes some feel important and others feel worthless. I'm not a hippie (I'm NOT fond of hippies) but I do believe that these kinds of things are a person's choice and no one has the right to condemn them for it. I'm not saying anyone was, because I respect your seperate opinions and They all have merit and all correspond to what you believe. I like to see all of you supporting your own beliefs, and I don't believe I've really seen anyone attack anyone else here. Sexual preferences are everyone's own thing. I say let 'em make their own choices. They won't go to Hell for it.
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