Thinking Deep...what makes a Jedi or Sith?

Aush gave me this idea and I think it is a worthy point to dwell upon: What makes a Jedi or Sith?

Here are just some ramblings from off the top of my head. The Jedi seem to be more passive when it comes to the Force. They prefer not to control it so much as have it control them. They open themselves to the Force and allow it to flow through them thus enhancing their powers and abilities.

The Sith prefer to control the Force. Rather than opening themselves to the Force, they seek to boost their power so that they can command it. They use base emotions like anger and rage to psych themselves up to a point that allows them to wield the Force. Plus their use of the Force seems to be inclined toward destroying or harming things.

Now the Force in general seems to be a power source that exists within the Universe itself. It is found in all living things. Force sentient beings are blessed with the ability to tap into the Force and can use its power. The use of the Force seems very similar to meditation in that in order to use it, you have to clear your mind and transcend the body. By reaching that state you are in touch with the Force. At this point the Jedi let it flow into them, and the Sith simply use it.

Both orders channel the Force though. So that's at least one thing they have in common.
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In my opinion, it's simple; the means they use are what seperate Jedi from Sith. Jedi try to be calmer and (for lack of a better word) cheerful about things. Sith do what is necessary to get a job done, regardless of what the price is. Of course, that's just one thing, but from my point of view, that's a major part of it.
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Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
-The Code of the Sith

In mourning . . . Crying or Very sad

What I've been wondering is what happens if a Sith uses the dark side without anger? It's possible I suppose because there are serial killers who murder and kill without emotion. Essentially they are living voids who are unable to feel. If one cannot feel then they cannot act in anger or feel fury and hatred. There are also others who can simply hit a switch and cut off their emotions temporarily. They become indifferent and can act without emotion.

So if some Sith Lord were to use the dark side in such a way so that he wasn't acting with anger, fury, or hatred, what would that make him? Would he be any different?

Example, he uses the Force without emotion to destroy a landspeeder. For sake of argument no one is in the speeder and he owns it, thus its destruction hurts no one but himself in terms of value. To use the Force to destroy is normally associated with the dark side. But he didn't use anger or any emotion whatsoever to do it. He simply voided out his mind, found clarity in the Force and wiped out the speeder as it sat restfully on the ground.

So is it an act of the dark side?
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I would say in the landspeeder case its not a dark side act per se since its not harming a living being (while a Jedi might argue the Force is present in the material that makes up the landspeeder I don't think they would consider it to have anything resembling life since otherwise cutting through a door with a lightsaber would have to be considered "killing" something).

As for a Sith Lord being a living void of emotion killing and destroying perhaps Darth Nihilus from KOTOR 2 would be a good case study. As I recall he the destruction he causes isn't done through malice and does it in a similar manner to how a carnivore kill something for food. The Exile might also be a good case study for this question.

So is the difference between the light and dark a matter of how one draws upon the Force, what one does with the Force, or both? Is the darkside of the Force actually bad or evil? Maybe it's simply the destructive side of the Force. A line of powers than are naturally suited for combat. Yet if simply using the Force to directly harm or destroy a living thing is an evil act, one that causes Force corruption, perhaps then the darkside is indeed not evil but inclined to be so.

Another interesting thought is if the darkside can be viewed as another aspect of the Force that is not wrong, bad, or evil until one uses it for such, then the Sith are simply practitioners of the darkside who consistently use it for such purposes. Whereas Dark Jedi might be darkside users who try, whether successful or not, to skirt around its evil use.

However another question in the study of what constitutes the darkside(when viewed as the evil/corrupted side of the Force) is when you use the Force to kill an adversary. Lets say you are a lone Jedi Knight and are surrounded by three Sith Masters. Your lightsaber is destroyed and their is no way of escape. Worse yet, the Sith Masters have twelve innocent captives whom they will kill if you cannot stop them. There are no other Jedi to help you. You are all alone with your only ally the Force. If you strike at them, killing the Sith Masters with the Force, is that an act of the darkside? Is it an act of evil? Is it wrong?

(Most likely there is no concrete answer to this scenario but it's interesting to explore.)
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well with your question on the Sith Masters vs a lone Jedi I would say the first part of using the Force to kill them would be whether the Jedi enjoyed doing so, or was pleased to be so powerful with the Force that they could kill three Sith with it.

I think you may have hit it on the head that the Dark Side isn't evil per se but it is inclined to be. For example, Force Persuade can be used to convince an enemy to commit suicide, you can use Force Push/Pull to send someone flying off a cliff edge. Yet these three powers are accepted by the Jedi. However, those three powers can be used for less destructive ends whereas Darks Side powers have little use outside of destruction and it seems based on Jedi teaching destruction is undesirable seems usually associated with the Dark Side.

So perhaps the root of evil in the dark side is the joy of causing harm, taking pleasure in the destruction of fellow life...

Yet that reminds me of Vergere's debate on whether an animal that kills its prey so it may eat should not feel some joy in its success, some measure of pride in the kill. Whether that is of the dark side. Part of it makes sense in that it is natural. One often feels pride in joy in accomplishment. So at what point does that joy cross the line? I think that bears its own problem in that the line is hard to distinguish but most definitely exists. A little pride is unavoidable, but too much is definitely wrong. When you can no longer control it and hunger for more, you know you've gone too far. Thus the line was crossed some time before that point. Interesting...
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Master Joined: 15 Apr 2008 Posts: 4434 Location: Korriban

But not all Sith use the dark side to simply gain power. Anakin Skywalker used it originally to save his wife and children. Lumiya used it to fulfill her duty, and saw no desire to do anything but create order. Caedus himself uses it for order, though he is now one of the most powerful force users in the EU. Palpatine wanted power. Krayt wants power, but they are the branches of Sith philosophy that seem to be flawed. In theory, the Sith way of thinking is more beneficial to the galaxy as a whole, but only in theory because power of any kind eventually corrupts. While I think that a Sith who is not in control of the galaxy could do some good, when have they not truly been in play to run it according to their desires?
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Perfection is a lifelong pursuit requiring sacrifice. The only way to get it quicker is to sacrifice the most.

The line of thought that ruins me is that I think the Sith's idea that a Force trained individual should run the galaxy is correct. An ordinary being can lead millions, even billions of people of a thousand countries and cultures, but leading trillions of a vast multitude of species and cultures is quite possibly too much for the ordinary individual to handle. Thus Force sensitives were meant to lead the masses.

As far as power corrupting, I think this is only a reflection of the individual concerned. Yoda and Obi-Wan held great power yet neither of them were corrupted. Luke is the most powerful Jedi ever, and though he has had his moments, he remains uncorrupted. No one is perfect but that doesn't mean they can't do the job or persevere. In the old old days the Jedi led the Republic and there wasn't any recorded problems.

When it comes down to it, I think the Jedi let there fear of the dark side rule them to create policies that severely limit themselves from what they could still safely do. My problem with the Sith is I think they are the victims of the authors. No one has ever clearly laid down the law on how the Force actually works or how the light and dark work within it. We don't really know whether the dark side is absolutely sure to corrupt someone or lead them to evil. We only know that the authors choose to create characters whose fates are so.
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Master Joined: 15 Apr 2008 Posts: 4434 Location: Korriban

Well said Skuldren. I do agree with that.
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Perfection is a lifelong pursuit requiring sacrifice. The only way to get it quicker is to sacrifice the most.

This has been referred to a number of times within the EU but the main difference (as I see it) between the Jedi and the Sith is how they view the Force.

Using the analogy of a river:

Sith: They use power and strength to manipulate the river to their ends. That is why moves such as Force Lightning are traditionally considerd "Sith" techniques because it requires the user to harness the Force in unusual ways.

Jedi: Jedi tend to just go with the flow of the Force. If the river curves to the right, then the Jedi go to the right.

I, myself, think that a middle-ground is a much more plausible view of the Force that allows for the maximum use of the Force while still allowing the Force to guide you.

Anakin Skywalker, Lumiya, and Caedus all became Sith maybe for the reasons you said. Luke Skywalker, Ulic Qel-Droma, and Quinlan Vos also became Sith in order to destroy the Sith from within. All wanted the better for the others, but they let their emotions get the better of them and the darkness took control of them. Some, like Lumiya and Caedus, look towards power (the asteriod and being Chief of State, respectively) to get their agendas through which really doesn't set them all that far apart from the other Sith.

And the light is just as corrupt as the dark. You give into darkness, you give into fear and hate and seek to dominate over all. You give into light, you give into love and care and seek to bring harmony to all. But both cause you to be blinded from other things: dark prevents you from seeing effects your actions are having on innocent others; light prevents you from seeing the effects your actions may be wrong. Since the Jedi thought they could never go wrong with being in the light, a dark shadow sneaked into their camp and destroyed them by putting them on the spot and they couldn't adapt. Since Sith tend to be more selfish, they don't see the masses gathering against them. The middle ground is the right one because either end is just as corrupt as the other. Matthew Stover really stresses these ideas in Traitor and the Episode III novelization if memory serves me right.

As for a Force sensitive being in control of the galaxy, I have to strongly disagree. I would argue the point of Force sensitives is to do the Force's will, assuming the Force has some level of sentience which is another argument. How is believing a Force sensitive is to rule different from thinking kings or queens should rule? Whenever one group is thought to be over another, problems arise and no group in the SW galaxy is over another.

This seems a little off topic, but it's just as relevant to the topic. Smile

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"Changes are nice--but so is continuity!"

"Then you saved my life. How disgusting. How unfortunate."
"No, don't gush on so. It was nothing, really."

It's interesting to think that the light side of the Force can be as corrupt as the dark side of the Force. This also brings up another point...

Have the Sith corrupted the dark side?

First let us presume that the dark side of the Force is merely the technique of imposing your will upon the Force, the matter of moving the river rather than letting it move you. If the dark side is nothing more than a different method of using the Force, which is what it essentially should be, then it is neither good nor bad. Yet, for the most part, when the Sith use it they end up doing evil. Jacen made his fall when he killed a fellow Jedi, just to escape some possible future that he foreseen. The dark side did not corrupt him but he corrupted it, that and Lumiya.

So if the different aspects of the Force can be used wrongly, does that in itself corrupt that aspect of the Force or maybe even the Force as a whole? Can the Force be corrupted or is it just the manifestation of the Force within yourself that is being corrupted or maybe just the individual is being corrupted?

It has been stated that pure wells of the Force, sources of its energy found naturally in the galaxy, can be corrupted. And it has been said that the dark side can cloud the Force. Perhaps this isn't the dark side so much as corruption of the Force itself. It is something to keep in mind at least.
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Padawan Joined: 13 May 2008 Posts: 12

I think really to understand the serpartion between sith and Jedi, we ought take some lessons from yoda. While we may disagree with Yoda's view on the force, or the traditional view, the experience yoda has had with the force at least should give some merit to his concept of having the Light side, and teh Dark side, aka Jedi and Sith.

Which basically boils down to the person, namely what is the nature of that person, what are they willing to do, what are their goals.

So essentialyl two factors what is that person's intentions, are they fair, just kind, are they biased? toward themsleves or others, are they cruel, imbalanced, and secodnly what means will they go to get their ends, are their means fair, as well as their end goals?

I think a Jedi fundamentally, while they may faulter from time to time as all people do, since they are, still human, are peopel who have have just visions, as well as just means to accomplishing them. Whereas a Sith to some large degree, whether it's in all matter or a particular matter, have a unjust, or unfair/biased ambition (violating a general princiiple of equality amongst all sentient things), and becuase of that view are willing to do unjust things to get their unjust end.

Essentialyl it's for what reason do you wield the powers you have that determine whether you're Jedi or sith.

And as yoda brings up, and as is expected, there are emotions tied with people who are trying to do something just, and peopel who are doing cruel unjust things, such as hatred, and anger, which the darkside is known for.
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Only the one truth will prevail

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