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 PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 12:55 pm Reply with quote  
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  Lord Ree'dius
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Somehow, I just can't picture Qui-gon leading a squad of clones nor strictly follow orders like a good general.

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I don't believe this to be true. What advice would Anakin be given by Qui Gon? Palpatine would have told him exactly what he wanted to hear. Qui Gon, I believe, would have told him not what he wanted to hear - at least not always.
I think with Qui-gon as a master things wouldn't have gone out of hand as much as they did with Anakin. I always had the feeling that Obi-Wan turned a blind eye towards Anakin's fault much too often.
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 PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 12:57 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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Well, if Qui Gon hadn't died and Dooky hadn't left the Order as a result then he would never have murdered Sifo-Dyas. A lot of stuff would have been different. Sifo-Dyas for one was a true pre-cognitive. He didn't see a possible future; he saw what really would happen. Who knows what he would have seen if he'd lived?
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 PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 1:14 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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Thoughts on how Qui-Gon might have dealt with Anakin's love for Padmé?


I haven't read the young reader books, so I don't know about this whole Siri business. As they say, ignorance is bliss. Thus Qui-Gon, valuing the Chosen One as he did, would bend another rule if that's what it took to keep him on the right path. It also depends at what point Qui-Gon learned of the relationship. If he learned before the thick headed Obi-Wan finally acknowledged it (ie. ROTS), then Qui-Gon could have either successfully persuaded Anakin to bury his love, or to keep this secret from the Council while he looked for a better solution (Altis' group perhaps). If that failed, and then Qui-Gon got pressed with Anakin's visions of her dying, it's possible Qui-Gon could have given him some ease of conscience with his knowledge of the Whills.

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This leads me to another question. I agree that Qui-Gon would have pushed for change as the Clone Wars began, and maybe even before that. But what happens when the Order doesn't listen, and when the council rejects his unorthodox thoughts once again? Would he have done as Dooku suggested to Obi-Wan? Do you think Qui-Gon would have left the Order?


Qui-Gon would have joined Dooku as long as he didn't know he was a Sith. There is no way he would have sided with him if he knew that. It's even possible Qui-Gon could have exposed Dooku, replaced him as leader of the Separatists, and really spoiled Sidious grand plan.

But if Qui-Gon didn't join the Seps, I think he would have made an excellent general. I like to think he would have had an extra special relationship with his troops, valuing them as individuals rather than clones. In that role, it would add an extra emphasis toward him confronting Dooku for a master vs apprentice duel.

If he survived the war, and the Jedi won with a happy ending, I would either see Qui-Gon finally getting a place on the Council to voice his opposing views, or the Jedi Civil War with one side forming up with Qui-Gon and his movement for change, and the others standing by the old ways.

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Qui Gon was 60 when he died. I don't think he would've learned all that much - but I don't think he would have learned some new lessons, had he taught Anakin, and Anakin, hopefully, vice versa.


You can learn a lot in ten years, and just because you reach a certain age does not mean you stop learning. I mean Qui-Gon didn't learn the whole One with the Force trick until late in life. After learning that, I'm sure it would have open up more secrets, and he could have passed these things on in person rather than via Force ghost. I think it could have countered Sidious' allure with the dark side and prolonged, unnatural life.

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What advice would Anakin be given by Qui Gon?


Trust in the Living Force. I think that is the key. The Unifying Force was doing anything for Anakin, but I think the Living Force philosophy could have helped.
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 PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 1:23 pm Reply with quote  
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  Queen Padmè Skywalker
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Darth Skuldren wrote:


I haven't read the young reader books, so I don't know about this whole Siri business. .


Tahl, Skuls, Qui-Gon had a thing with Tahl. Wink

But if we are talking Siri, Qui-Gon did tell Obi-Wan he had to give her up or leave the Order. There wasn't a whole lot of discussion about it.
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 PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 1:24 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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I wouldn't classify the Living Force or Unifying Force as philosophies; they're aspects of the Jedi understanding of the Force (notwithstanding poorly written EU material like the Jedi Academy Training Manual by WOTC). Qui-Gon's espousal of the Living Force isn't indicative of an adherence to that as a philosophy at the expense of the Unifying Force, especially since much of what Qui-Gon says is in line with what is considered the Unifying Force. The Unifying Force governs destiny and purpose, which is what Qui-Gon is all about in the films, viewing his chance encounters as anything but, much to Obi-Wan's annoyance. The will of the Force, a concept introduced by Qui-Gon in the film and pretty much solely discussed by him, is entirely an aspect of the Unifying Force.

Qui-Gon is the man of Star Wars. He had it figured out but was tragically killed before he could influence the way things shook out, beyond furnishing Anakin to the Jedi Order. They dropped the ball afterward.

I particularly like his appearance in TCW, and his espousal of the middle path. He's not one to be polarized, as the Jedi let themselves be in the Clone Wars. He's all about balance.


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 PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 1:29 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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It was well documented that by Qui Gon's time the OJO had placed huge emphasis on the Unifying Force over the Living Force. They were treating it like a tool to do their fancy stuff with. Qui Gon had a much deeper understanding of the Living Force, and used it much more in it's whole nature.

The opposite was mirrored in The Unifying Force because Luke was beginning to grasp a greater understanding of it. Naturally he'd emphasized the Living Force because that's what he'd been taught, and he needed it. Obi-Wan and Yoda had so little time to teach him.
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 PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 1:31 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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Cerrinea wrote:
It was well documented that by Qui Gon's time the OJO had placed huge emphasis on the Unifying Force over the Living Force. They were treating it like a tool to do their fancy stuff with. Qui Gon had a much deeper understanding of the Living Force, and used it much more in it's whole nature.

The opposite was mirrored in The Unifying Force because Luke was beginning to grasp a greater understanding of it. Naturally he'd emphasized the Living Force because that's what he'd been taught, and he needed it. Obi-Wan and Yoda had so little time to teach him.


I find it interesting that Qui-Gon is saddled with the Living Force descriptor when the vast majority of what he says in the film deals exclusively with the Unifying Force. The extent to which Qui-Gon discusses the Living Force is the "live in the moment" advice he imparts to Obi-Wan, which is something he criticizes Obi-Wan for not doing, thinking too far ahead.


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 PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 1:37 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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Well, the movies aren't the only canon source. There's more in the books.
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 PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 1:45 pm Reply with quote  
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  Old Master Ben
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I've always enjoyed how many aspects of Qui-Gon we see in the one film alone. Another question: which quality of Qui-Gon do you like the most? There are so many: his ability to see value in people that would normally be dismissed, his regard for all living things, his defiance of the council, his wisdom, his trust in the Force...

I loved his respect for life in TPM, regardless of how it may impact his mission. He could have easily left Jar Jar to the Gungan justice system, but he didn't. I think Obi-Wan would have, at that point. However, because of Qui-Gon's example, I believe Obi-Wan would have saved Jar Jar too if the same circumstance presented itself in the future.


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 PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 1:48 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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Cerrinea wrote:
Well, the movies aren't the only canon source. There's more in the books.


Oh, I know, but in this case it seems to me that some of the books have taken a deep character, latched onto one aspect of him, and inadvertently have made him one dimensional, based upon perception of the character. Personally I don't think any books that depict Qui-Gon as a character really do that, but I haven't read the young adult ones, and maybe it's just sort of a meme that's spread?

"The overriding philosophy in Episode I -- and all the Star Wars movies, for that matter -- is the balance between good and evil. The Force itself breaks itself into two sides: the living Force and the greater, cosmic Force. The living Force makes you sensitive to other living things, makes you intuitive, and allows you to read other people's minds, et cetera. But the greater Force has to do with destiny. In working with the Force, you can find your destiny and you can choose to either follow it, or not." -GL, The Making of Episode I

I find it kind of disheartening that the EU has completely misconstrued this, although I suppose you could claim the same is said of the light and dark sides of the Force as opposing philosophies, though I'd definitely argue that the Jedi and the Sith view the Force the same, and their more mundane philosophies concerning power are where they differ.

Maybe Terry Brooks novelization of Episode I is the root of Qui-Gon being labeled the Living Force proponent, I think it noted as much... honestly, that bothered me for a long time because I couldn't correlate what Qui-Gon says about the will of the Force and destiny and so forth with him being one-minded with the Living Force and disregarding the Unifying Force, until I realized that he isn't exclusively focused upon the Living Force.


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 PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 2:12 pm Reply with quote  
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  Lord Ree'dius
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Old Master Ben wrote:
I've always enjoyed how many aspects of Qui-Gon we see in the one film alone. Another question: which quality of Qui-Gon do you like the most? There are so many: his ability to see value in people that would normally be dismissed, his regard for all living things, his defiance of the council, his wisdom, his trust in the Force..
His trust in the force, definitely! I think most of his other great qualities stem from this.

LivingJediDream wrote:
Qui-Gon is the man of Star Wars. He had it figured out but was tragically killed before he could influence the way things shook out, beyond furnishing Anakin to the Jedi Order. They dropped the ball afterward.
Agreed!

Darth Skuldren wrote:
I haven't read the young reader books, so I don't know about this whole Siri business. As they say, ignorance is bliss. Thus Qui-Gon, valuing the Chosen One as he did, would bend another rule if that's what it took to keep him on the right path. It also depends at what point Qui-Gon learned of the relationship. If he learned before the thick headed Obi-Wan finally acknowledged it (ie. ROTS), then Qui-Gon could have either successfully persuaded Anakin to bury his love, or to keep this secret from the Council while he looked for a better solution (Altis' group perhaps). If that failed, and then Qui-Gon got pressed with Anakin's visions of her dying, it's possible Qui-Gon could have given him some ease of conscience with his knowledge of the Whills.
I think that Qui-gon would have presented with the choice between the Order and Padme. Qui-gon would have supported Anakin in whatever choice he would have made, but he would have made Anakin choose I think and not let him keep secrets like that.
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Still much to learn, you have. Surrender, you should."

"You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

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 PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 2:24 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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I always thought of Qui-Gon as the ideal Jedi Knight. If the entire Jedi Order were like Qui-Gon, the galaxy would be set. He did his job without letting bureaucratic red tape get in his way. The reason he was probably sent to Naboo to begin with is because the other Jedi wouldn't go since the Chancellor wasn't supposed to send them.


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 PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 2:48 pm Reply with quote  
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  Old Master Ben
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Okay, this next question is pretty different, but it's meant for a fun break from our serious thinking.

Let's say George Lucas wants to make prequels to the prequels. This will require a young Qui-Gon Jinn. Liam Neeson is currently 58 years old (turning 59 next month), so it's probably best to get someone closer to the age of Qui-Gon in the film. Say, 20 years old. Which young actor should play Qui-Gon?

Also, the role of Dooku would need to be filled. Sadly, Christopher Lee can't pull off being any younger than he is.


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 PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 3:02 pm Reply with quote  
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  Old Master Ben
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I have one: Josh Pence. Click the spoiler tag for a picture.

Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)


Pence is supposed to play a young Ras Al Ghul in the next Batman movie, and of course Liam Neeson played Ras Al Ghul in Batman Begins.


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 PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 3:20 pm Reply with quote  
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  Lord Ree'dius
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He does have the looks for it.
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Still much to learn, you have. Surrender, you should."

"You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

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