Log in to check your private messages
Randomt thought on life
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The EUCantina Forums Forum Index » The Meditation Grove View previous topic :: View next topic  
 PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:20 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  illogicalRogue2
Administrator
Administrator

Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 2851
Location: ....last know presence was near the Tingel Arm..

cont.

Old Master Ben wrote:

. A theory is not a law, and evolution is a theory. I think those in the scientific community who consider it a law would be very few.)


I think that for me I run into the problem of I don't see Evolution as many of it's supporters do. Smile
_________________

-Bring on your thousands, one at a time or all in a rush. I don't give a damn. None shall pass.
-
-To become a Jedi, it is not the Force one must learn to control but oneself.
-
-Podcasts: Star Wars Beyond the Films, The Star Wars Report, & EUCast


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger

 PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:31 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Rouge77
Master
Master

Joined: 22 Mar 2008
Posts: 599

Old Master Ben wrote:
My mistake, I should clarify which Rogue I meant. I will edit my post. Smile


Nah, just egoism from my part. Sorry, Illogical Rogue. Embarassed

Old Master Ben wrote:
A theory is not a law, and evolution is a theory. I think those in the scientific community who consider it a law would be very few.)


I would think contrary, evolution is proved, accepted by huge majority - and I would call it a fact. I personally somewhat dislike the use of term "laws of nature"

Law tends to be something that is "artificial" in my opinion, agreed by people to be a rule binding them, but not something that exist separate of them and their society. Like the laws of nature do. We have nothing to do with their existence, but they have with our existence.


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

 PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:33 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  illogicalRogue2
Administrator
Administrator

Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 2851
Location: ....last know presence was near the Tingel Arm..

Rouge77 wrote:
Old Master Ben wrote:
My mistake, I should clarify which Rogue I meant. I will edit my post. Smile


Nah, just egoism from my part. Sorry, Illogical Rogue. Embarassed


No worries- I knew who and what was meant- we're all friends here! EUCers UNITE!
_________________

-Bring on your thousands, one at a time or all in a rush. I don't give a damn. None shall pass.
-
-To become a Jedi, it is not the Force one must learn to control but oneself.
-
-Podcasts: Star Wars Beyond the Films, The Star Wars Report, & EUCast


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger

 PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:40 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Old Master Ben
Administrator
Administrator

Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 2257
Location: Georgia

Quote:
I would think contrary, evolution is proved, accepted by huge majority - and I would call it a fact. I personally somewhat dislike the use of term "laws of nature"

Law tends to be something that is "artificial" in my opinion, agreed by people to be a rule binding them, but not something that exist separate of them and their society. Like the laws of nature do. We have nothing to do with their existence, but they have with our existence


If evolution has been proven, why is it not a law? You may dislike the term law, but it is what they are teaching in classrooms along with evolution. It is a scientific term: Law, Theory, Hypothesis.

Visit this link for more on the difference: http://chemistry.about.com/od/chemistry101/a/lawtheory.htm. But a quote from that link:

"A law generalizes a body of observations. At the time it is made, no exceptions have been found to a law. Scientific laws explain things, but they do not describe them. One way to tell a law and a theory apart is to ask if the description gives you a means to explain 'why'."


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address

 PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:12 am Reply with quote  
Message
  Rouge77
Master
Master

Joined: 22 Mar 2008
Posts: 599

Old Master Ben wrote:
If evolution has been proven, why is it not a law? You may dislike the term law, but it is what they are teaching in classrooms along with evolution. It is a scientific term: Law, Theory, Hypothesis.


Yes, yes, Law it is. Law just tends to make some people imagine that we are talking about things that can be chosen and abolished with will. What a postmodern philosopher would claim is just something dreamed up by scientists, and I have seen this claimed about modern physics too. People think they can opt out of these things just because they don't like them.

And evolution is proven. It's just that some people don't want to accept the fact, like some people don't want to accept the fact that Earth is not flat, that Earth orbits the Sun (surprisingly big numbers for this in polls), that people have visited the Moon etc. Show a picture of Earth's globe from space to a flat-Earther and he comes up with a claim it's a fraud, show the recent LRO satellite's pictures of the visible marks of Apollo missions still surviving on the surface of the Moon to a person claiming the missions were done "in a Hollywood basement" and they claim the same. And it's the same with evolution and creationists. There's just nothing they will accept.

I feel that arguing with people like them is pointless, because they don't make their choice on a rational basis, but basis on what they fervently want the world to be like. So that their position on these things because an immovable object that no evidence can change, because their view is no way based on evidence in the firsty place.


Last edited by Rouge77 on Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:30 am; edited 1 time in total


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

 PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:24 am Reply with quote  
Message
  Old Master Ben
Administrator
Administrator

Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 2257
Location: Georgia

Rouge77 wrote:
Old Master Ben wrote:
If evolution has been proven, why is it not a law? You may dislike the term law, but it is what they are teaching in classrooms along with evolution. It is a scientific term: Law, Theory, Hypothesis.


Yes, yes. Law just tends to make some people imagine that we are talking about things that can be chosen and abolished with will. What a postmodern philosopher would claim is just something dreamed up by scientists, and I have seen this claimed about modern physics too. People think they can opt out of these things just because they don't like them.

And evolution is proven. It's just that some people don't want to accept the fact, like some people don't want to accept the fact that Earth is not flat, that Earth orbits the Sun (surprisingly small numbers for this), that people have visited the Moon etc. Show a picture of Earth's globe from space to a flat-Earther and he comes up with a claim it's a fraud, show the recent LRO satellite's pictures of the visible marks of Apollo missions still surviving on the surface of the Moon and they claim the same. And it's the same with evolution and creationists. There's just nothing they will accept.

I feel that arguing with people like this is pointless, because they don't make their choice on a rational basis, but basis on what they fervently want the world to be like. So that their position on these things because an immovable object that no evidence can change, because their view is no way based on evidence.


I don't see how law makes people think that it can be chosen and abolished with will. When I think of things like the law of gravity, I don't think of that. A law is something that is proven, with no exceptions. I'll tell you the reason that evolution is not a fact. Nobody was there! This is not the same as people landing on the moon, or flat-earth. People can currently examine the earth from space, and people were around when we landed on the moon. Now, if somebody wishes to not believe these things, okay. But at least in both cases there are people around to determine if either are true. It's convenient that it nobody saw evolution take place. Not a single record or description from any human being of evolution. Obviously evolution of every species didn't take place at once, correct? So where are the historical accounts of the evolution of humans and other creatures? At least in Christianity, we have the Bible. You can say that it was made up if you want, but it's more than you have, from the aspect of a personal account. What you have to base evolution off of is artifacts from the past that have been interpreted to provide evidence for evolution. An object can be interpreted in anyway. It would be nice if you had some kind of account from someone saying that they saw evolution take place. And I mean real evolution, not adapting to the environment like Darwin found. I mean from one type of organism to another.

Here's a question that is still kind of on the topic of evolution. What came before it? Before evolution, how did the world get here? Just curious if you believe in the big bang, or something else.


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address

 PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:39 am Reply with quote  
Message
  Rouge77
Master
Master

Joined: 22 Mar 2008
Posts: 599

Old Master Ben wrote:
Here's a question that is still kind of on the topic of evolution. What came before it? Before evolution, how did the world get here? Just curious if you believe in the big bang, or something else.


Sure I think the current model of the birth of the universe is correct (although some aspects of it, like inflation I mentioned above, might have or might not have happened). So Big Bang it is for me.

Now we get to the question what happened before Big Bang - although "before" is of course a troublesome term in this case. Personally, I feel the concept of multiverse fascinating and hope it is true (although proving it will be very hard and for all likelihood can't be done during my lifetime), but with it we are still left with the same question: What happened before it - where did it came? It couldn't have existed forever (although again, forever is a troublesome term), could it?

Personally I feel that there must have been a point of beginning at some point, from where it all began, but on the other hand, I do know that my urge is culturally conditioned, based on the linear concept of time dominating the Abrahamic religions (and before them first brought forth by Zoroastriainism), that there is a beginning and an end. Well, it might well be that there is no end, at least I fervently hope so, and perhaps, although I just can't get truly over that cultural conditioning, there has been no beginning.

And of course, if someone wants to answer the beginning with god or gods, then where did god or gods come from? It's still the same problem.


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

 PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:57 am Reply with quote  
Message
  Rouge77
Master
Master

Joined: 22 Mar 2008
Posts: 599

Old Master Ben wrote:
If evolution has been I'll tell you the reason that evolution is not a fact. Nobody was there! This is not the same as people landing on the moon, or flat-earth. People can currently examine the earth from space, and people were around when we landed on the moon. Now, if somebody wishes to not believe these things, okay. But at least in both cases there are people around to determine if either are true. It's convenient that it nobody saw evolution take place. Not a single record or description from any human being of evolution. Obviously evolution of every species didn't take place at once, correct? So where are the historical accounts of the evolution of humans and other creatures?


Evolution happens all the time. all around us. It's not just something that happened in the past. In short-living species it can be quite rapid, in longer living species like us it does happen in timescales that are not observable during a lifetime. But that's the same thing about most geological processes. Yet, just put human and hominid skulls on a line, from us to Sahelantropus to 6-7 million years ago and see the change. And some major evolutionary change is relatively rapid and recent, like the ability to digest milk:

http://ec.europa.eu/research/headlines/news/article_09_09_17_en.html

Old Master Ben wrote:
It would be nice if you had some kind of account from someone saying that they saw evolution take place. And I mean real evolution, not adapting to the environment like Darwin found. I mean from one type of organism to another.


What you connect to Darwin sound more like what Lamarck(1744-1829) proposed. And all living beings are still evolving. So, all species are kind of transitional missing links. But here's a relatively recent example of a traditional transitional fossil, the 380-375 million year old Tiktaalik, that shows to us a species in the in the process of evolving features needed for moving from water to ground (although there was no "goal" behind this, it was just adapting to it's own environment):

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/04/tiktaalik_makes_another_gap.php


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

 PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:09 am Reply with quote  
Message
  illogicalRogue2
Administrator
Administrator

Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 2851
Location: ....last know presence was near the Tingel Arm..

Old Master Ben wrote:
[ I mean real evolution, not adapting to the environment like Darwin found. I mean from one type of organism to another.


For me the adaptation is evolution. But I see it as Gods work in action. (Part of me wonders if mankind will carry on until all races are co merged again Confused nnnahh IDK)

But what about the fish that moved onto land? The animal evidence is all around, but IMO animal evolution is dramatically different then ours to a degree. But the only 'one type' I can think of is like the Horse/ Mule/ Quarter Horse, and Alligator/Croc families, etc. But I think things were more diverse even at the start- that our planets life bloomed on billions of levels. But after life comes the adaptations are what advance each species, they evolve to the adaptation. The generations from then on are evolved from the generation that bred the one that adapted. But there are so many things to consider.....I dwell on it not often for it's not that big a concern for me. As OMB said-not like we were there. We all see it a little different to a degree. Which is Fascinating.


Old Master Ben wrote:
[ Here's a question that is still kind of on the topic of evolution. What came before it? Before evolution, how did the world get here? Just curious if you believe in the big bang, or something else.



Me I think Big Bang has merit for the closest measurement to how God did it; being visible to our perceptions. Yet it still pails in comparison to what it must have been like when created. But that's just my take on it Wink
_________________

-Bring on your thousands, one at a time or all in a rush. I don't give a damn. None shall pass.
-
-To become a Jedi, it is not the Force one must learn to control but oneself.
-
-Podcasts: Star Wars Beyond the Films, The Star Wars Report, & EUCast


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger

 PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:15 am Reply with quote  
Message
  illogicalRogue2
Administrator
Administrator

Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 2851
Location: ....last know presence was near the Tingel Arm..

Rouge77 wrote:
Well, it might well be that there is no end, at least I fervently hope so,


I'm with you on that one! I feel there is no end, Earth might, but existence will continue with or without Man. God's cosmic.
Quote:

and perhaps, although I just can't get truly over that cultural conditioning, there has been no beginning.


I can see that too- but to me God is the infinite as well.
Code:

And of course, if someone wants to answer the beginning with god or gods, then where did god or gods come from? It's still the same problem.


My view there parallels the Force- It Just IS = God Just IS. But my weird take on things is nothing new Wink
_________________

-Bring on your thousands, one at a time or all in a rush. I don't give a damn. None shall pass.
-
-To become a Jedi, it is not the Force one must learn to control but oneself.
-
-Podcasts: Star Wars Beyond the Films, The Star Wars Report, & EUCast


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger

 PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:25 am Reply with quote  
Message
  illogicalRogue2
Administrator
Administrator

Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 2851
Location: ....last know presence was near the Tingel Arm..

Rouge77 wrote:


Evolution happens all the time. all around us. It's not just something that happened in the past. In short-living species it can be quite rapid, in longer living species like us it does happen in timescales that are not observable during a lifetime.



That's funny too cause my 10 years working graveyards in a Dark Room Green light environment and the last year had red and Green lights. They had Yellow lights to reduce the strain on our eyes. But now that I don't work there- my eyes- which my vision is still 20/20 they go nuts in bright light environments- I mean tear up to the point I can't continue what I was doing, and little light changes like the kind off a TV on a wall- my eyes adapt to the dark so fast now that what drives me nuts people just can't see. And the same with hearing- I had to run sheeting and slitting machines- and became fluent with the "sounds" they made- more importantly what sounds indicated a problem in the future. Now though I hear all sorts of high pitches and low ones and if I turn my head I catch others that no one around me hears. And I can so focus out other sounds. A handy trick when ignoring the wife- though ignoring your wife WILL ALWAYS BACKFIRE so it's more handy when the kids get loud and obnoxious Wink

But yeah now that I no longer work there it took 8 months to get me out of the "UP ALL NIGHT" routine- I still have days where I'm up till dawn though....And I started to notice how working in that enviroment affected me after 10 years. Crazy!
_________________

-Bring on your thousands, one at a time or all in a rush. I don't give a damn. None shall pass.
-
-To become a Jedi, it is not the Force one must learn to control but oneself.
-
-Podcasts: Star Wars Beyond the Films, The Star Wars Report, & EUCast


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger

 PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:37 am Reply with quote  
Message
  Old Master Ben
Administrator
Administrator

Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 2257
Location: Georgia

Quote:
I feel that arguing with people like this is pointless, because they don't make their choice on a rational basis, but basis on what they fervently want the world to be like. So that their position on these things because an immovable object that no evidence can change, because their view is no way based on evidence.


Sorry, I just want to address this.

I made my choice on a rational basis. I consider believing in God to be rational. When I look at the world, I don't see how this could not have come from intelligent design. Even if evolution was involved, do you really think that the earth just happened by random chance? Now that is illogical. That is irrational. That is not wanting to believe in a God, so you take whatever "evidence" you can find to prove that God does not exist. But if you just thought about it rationally, a God makes more sense than any of this "science." Let's go back a step. Let's say I'm an unbiased person who has never heard of God, or of evolution. I am told this: There are two possible ways that the earth was formed. An intelligent God created it, or it was formed through a scientific process called the big bang; the idea that the Universe has expanded from a primordial hot and dense initial condition at some finite time in the past. The earth itself was formed from a disk-shaped mass of dust and gas left over from the formation of the Sun.

I look at that and rationally come to the conclusion of a God, based on my observations of the world. How could something this complex have been formed by a disk-shaped mass of dust? How could things evolve into the incredibly accurate and complex design of a human? You probably won't acknowledge this, but it takes faith to believe in evolution. And, at least for me, it would take a lot more faith to believe in evolution than in God. I have a really hard time believing that everything just happened by chance? How can you think that you were formed by chance, evolved from something created in a disk-shaped mass of dust and gas left over from the formation of the sun, which came from an every expanding universe? Look at everything man! There is no way that intelligent design wasn't involved. I don't twist the world how I want it to be. If I did, I would believe in evolution. Believing in evolution is a lot easier of a path than believing in God. At least for now. I believe in the conclusions I have made after observing the world. My views are based on as much evidence as yours. I have an entire historical book detailing the creation of the universe. I consider it to tell the truth, you don't. You don't even consider it as evidence because of your bias that there is no God.

Let me make this point one more time, because I feel it is extremely important. If I wanted the world to be how I wanted it, I would pick evolution. Evolution is the accepted scientific theory. It means the world doesn't ridicule you for believing in a God. It means you don't have to answer to a God. It is the easy way out. And who doesn't want easy? But I can't pick evolution, because I can't logically say that the universe was not created from some kind of intelligent design. So I chose having a God. And if you think the path of Christianity is easy, than you need to study up on the Bible. If you're going to debate it, you should at least understand it. No Christian chose Christianity because it would make life how they want to live it. It's really easy to not believe in a God, huh? You can do whatever you want in life without any fear of future consequence. If I wanted to have the world my way, I wouldn't believe in God.


I used spoiler-warnings for the following story, because it is long and I don't want to take up the entire space on the page with my one post.

Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)

Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)


Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address

 PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:42 am Reply with quote  
Message
  Old Master Ben
Administrator
Administrator

Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 2257
Location: Georgia

After viewing the Big Bang Wikipedia page, I found a number of problems with the theory. In fact, the Wikipedia page has a whole section on the problems. What is the problem with the Bible? I can only find one: That you have to believe in a God. If you don't believe in God, than sure, the Bible is a joke to you. But let's go back to our example. I then ask this person "Okay, well, before the big-bang, or before creation, where did everything come from? How did the heat form in the first place? How did God form in the first place?" Again, rationally, I would say God is the greater possibility. You have no explanation to how the the universe started. I researched it, and it's based off of the presumption that basic physical forces existed. Okay, so where did those come from? No answer. Therefore, it takes faith to believe that these physical forces were just there. The same way it would take faith to believe that a God was just there. I find it rational to believe in a God. I can't answer where he came from. But you can't answer where the basis of the entire universe came from either. This is where it comes down to one simple question: do you want to believe in a God. I do, based on everything I've said above. If I'm going to believe in Him, than I will also take Him over...well, nothing. There is no explanation for the formation of what created the universe. You can either pick A) God was always there. B) The physical forces were always there. Just seems more logical to me to pick God. Maybe I'm biased.


Quote:
Evolution happens all the time. all around us. It's not just something that happened in the past. In short-living species it can be quite rapid, in longer living species like us it does happen in timescales that are not observable during a lifetime. But that's the same thing about most geological processes. Yet, just put human and hominid skulls on a line, from us to Sahelantropus to 6-7 million years ago and see the change. And some major evolutionary change is relatively rapid and recent, like the ability to digest milk:


Really? You see one species changing into another species all the time? I agree, what a species can do will evolve as it adapts. But I am talking about one species into another species. That is the evolution that nobody has seen, and that there is no human historical record of.


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address

 PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:48 am Reply with quote  
Message
  illogicalRogue2
Administrator
Administrator

Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 2851
Location: ....last know presence was near the Tingel Arm..

Old Master Ben wrote:


I made my choice on a rational basis. I consider believing in God to be rational. When I look at the world, I don't see how this could not have come from intelligent design. Even if evolution was involved, do you really think that the earth just happened by random chance? Now that is illogical.


(Adopts Vader's Voice)
No I am illogical...


And I believe in intelligent design the signs are all around me Smile I believe in God. I believe many of us believe in God in our own ways- what's important - that we believe and have a relationship with God in some form. But that's me. I know it wasn't directed at me, but being newer here then most felt I should share to help people get this old nut Laughing
_________________

-Bring on your thousands, one at a time or all in a rush. I don't give a damn. None shall pass.
-
-To become a Jedi, it is not the Force one must learn to control but oneself.
-
-Podcasts: Star Wars Beyond the Films, The Star Wars Report, & EUCast


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger

 PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:00 am Reply with quote  
Message
  illogicalRogue2
Administrator
Administrator

Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 2851
Location: ....last know presence was near the Tingel Arm..

Old Master Ben wrote:


Let me make this point one more time, because I feel it is extremely important. If I wanted the world to be how I wanted it, I would pick evolution. Evolution is the accepted scientific theory. It means the world doesn't ridicule you for believing in a God. It means you don't have to answer to a God. It is the easy way out. And who doesn't want easy? But I can't pick evolution, because I can't logically say that the universe was not created from some kind of intelligent design. So I chose having a God. And if you think the path of Christianity is easy, than you need to study up on the Bible. If you're going to debate it, you should at least understand it. No Christian chose Christianity because it would make life how they want to live it. It's really easy to not believe in a God, huh? You can do whatever you want in life without any fear of future consequence.


I think I may be confused. I believe in evolution (albeit not as the FULL) and God. I think evolution through adaptation as God's work. But why must one HAVE to chose between God a science? This always gets me about both sides of these arguments- for people like me it's weird I see lines where some need not be. Why must it be one or the other? I see Gods hands all over it all. Or perhaps my misunderstanding this is one of those things about organized religion I'll never quite understand? It's just not my cup of tea, I mean no disrespect for I truly am curious what I am missing here.
_________________

-Bring on your thousands, one at a time or all in a rush. I don't give a damn. None shall pass.
-
-To become a Jedi, it is not the Force one must learn to control but oneself.
-
-Podcasts: Star Wars Beyond the Films, The Star Wars Report, & EUCast


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger

Post new topic   Reply to topic    The EUCantina Forums Forum Index » The Meditation Grove

Page 10 of 14
All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14  Next

Display posts from previous:

  

Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
Jedi Knights 2 by Scott Stubblefield