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 PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:53 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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My head officially hurts.
By the way, Autobahn, I agree with what you said about the Bible not being a science book. Otherwise I'll have a final statement and withdraw because I probably won't convince anyone of my views and I know no one will convince me of this nihlistic claptrap (love that word Razz ) that is now what most believe. So here it is: I have a choice of believing a bunch of self-proclaimed scientists who, might I add also proudly proclaimed that the earth was flat not too long ago, who insist that everything happened by chance and that life has no meaning or I can believe in a God who has never let me down, always keeps his promises and fills me up with hope and purpose. I should think the answer is obvious.
That is all.
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Where sky and water meet,
Where the waves grow sweet,
Doubt not, Reepicheep,
To find all you seek,
There is the utter east.


Last edited by Reepicheep on Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:17 pm; edited 1 time in total


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 PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:11 pm Reply with quote  
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  Rouge77
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The idea that the Earth is flat wasn't as common as is popularly thought - and there were some other kind non-round Earths in ancient Greek natural philosophy - not even during the Middle Ages. A round Earth was more or less universally accepted during the late Middle Age and so nobody thought seriously that Columbus could sail over the edge of the world. (Although he did get the size of Earth wrong, thinking it to be far too small, perhaps deliberately to make the journey to look easier.)

And never trust self-proclaimed scientists, only those who are accepted as scientists by colleagues and university authorities etc. Which means that they have degrees that haven't been bought online and that their work is peer-reviewed like in Nature etc. That's the basis of science, results are valid only if other scientists can check and verify them.

When it comes to life and meaning, there's of course a biological meaning for our lives, and my opionion is that we can try to give our life also other kind of meanings, even if there wouldn't be any grand plan behind our own existence. As long as we live, we can try to live so that our life has a positive meaning and hope that through good acts some ripples of our lives will continue to spread after our death.

Which isn't terribly far from Catholic thinking.


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 PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:15 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Okay clearly you missed my point. I'm done. I know what I believe, you know what you believe. I don't think either of us will budge, so there isn't much point of keep going back and forth till the stars fall (if, of course you believ such things Rolling Eyes)
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Where sky and water meet,
Where the waves grow sweet,
Doubt not, Reepicheep,
To find all you seek,
There is the utter east.


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 PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:17 pm Reply with quote  
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  Salaris Vorn
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Don't forget the controversy of whether the earth was the center of the universe or not. Lets face it chances are in a hundred years or so evolution probably no longer be the big controversy between religion and science and a new debate will have taken its place.
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 PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:28 pm Reply with quote  
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  Rouge77
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That's probably right. I read just yesterday a column about the Anglican Church, where it was written that each generation has had it's great battle over some idea that divided the members of the Church and that those battles have tended to look just silly afterwards to future generations.


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 PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:30 pm Reply with quote  
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  Rouge77
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Reepicheep wrote:
Okay clearly you missed my point. I'm done. I know what I believe, you know what you believe. I don't think either of us will budge, so there isn't much point of keep going back and forth till the stars fall (if, of course you believ such things Rolling Eyes)


I didn't miss your point. I understood it, I just couldn't resist taking couple of things from your post and writing about them. Wink


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 PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:03 pm Reply with quote  
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  Mara Jade Skywalker
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I honestly don't believe that scientists are off their rockers. And yet I see how many religions (Christianity mainly) like to slam scientists just because they are scientists. I, on the other hand, would rather not argue with them. I don't know science, it was my least favorite subject in school, and so I am very hesitant to claim they've got it wrong. Instead I simply have faith in the Bible, and if science contradicts something it says, for me it's just a misunderstanding on one side or the other. I do believe scientists to be fallible, but not the Bible. So that is why I disagree with evolution. The Bible says God created the Earth and its inhabitants in 6 days, so that's my belief. When scientists say it took millions of years, I have to disagree because the Bible does. Whereas the age of the Earth could simply be a misunderstanding on the Bible side, seeing as perhaps the Earth was created at an advanced age.

Anyway, my point being that I don't like to argue against science. It has its purpose and is most often correct, or close enough. But where science contradicts the Bible, this is when I have to disagree. It has nothing to do with the scientists and their credibility, I just feel like they've made an error which may one day be proven as such, and then it may not.

So yeah, nothing against scientists and their profession. I just have personal beliefs I get from the Bible that cause me to disagree with them in some areas. And perhaps they are right in some of those areas, but I've just interpreted the Bible wrong on my end. So no, I don't believe they're a bunch of whackos. I respect their profession and there you go. Does that make any sense? Smile
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 PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:17 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Yeah, it makes sense. I'm sorry if I was a bit brash back there, I guess the reason I get so worked up is that I know what I believe from my heart not my head. So when I get locked in a scientific battle over things like this, it frusterates me because the things I feel in my heart aren't things that can win an argument, but things other people belive from their heads can easily win. That's just how it goes.
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Where sky and water meet,
Where the waves grow sweet,
Doubt not, Reepicheep,
To find all you seek,
There is the utter east.


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 PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:39 pm Reply with quote  
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  Rouge77
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What can I say to that? I would like to say that you probably could have both, what heart and mind tell, as long as you kept them separate, so you wouldn't have to choose just one. But that's to you to decide. If you decide to choose what your heart tells you, it's your choice.

Personally I have always loved reading about science, it has been the one thing that I have always been able to trust to bring happiness to my day since I learned to read. I love that the world around us can be explained, and that we can solve things that have been mysteries for humanity until our time. That's my choice.


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 PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:50 am Reply with quote  
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  Salaris Vorn
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First let me say I'm not trying to get into an argument here. I just had a thought and was curious of peoples opinions of it.

Just a question here on evolution vs. creation of world in six days. Now I get that we assume "day" is equal to our 24 hour day but is it not possible that the interpretation of the word is incorrect? For example a "day" on the planet Mercury would be a different number of hours because its rotation is different from Earths. Therefore the time frame of a day is a relative thing so isn't it possible for one "day" for God to be several million of our years?

For what its worth I kind of find it hard to believe that we all just came here as part of some big chemical accident (plus I think it is a depressing idea that there is nothing else except this life). The way I like to think of it is that god, the creator, whatever you want to call it made us with a basic template and then just nature take its course (I kind of equate it roughly to the way computers started out as remarkably primitive and are now super complex as a natural result of the passage of time. The basic concept/template hasn't changed just the working parts that make it all possible).
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 PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:24 am Reply with quote  
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  Mara Jade Skywalker
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I've considered that many times. And I honestly can't prove it one way or the other, so that's one of the things I meant. That could possibly be a misinterpretation on my and others' parts concerning creation. I don't think it is, but it is a possibility. So the age of the Earth could be questioned there. However, concerning evolution (and I don't know that you were talking about this, but I'll touch on it anyway), I don't believe we evolved from anything because the Bible says:

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." Genesis 1:26-27

"And the LORD God formed man
of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed." Genesis 2:7-8

"And the LORD God said,
It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man." Genesis 2:18, 20-23

So I don't know, but it just seems pretty clear cut to me. God created mankind as a man and woman from the beginning. And if there was anything before that (as some people say), then fine. But that doesn't change the fact that God made Adam and Eve as people from the first. They had bones and flesh...they were made in God's image! So yeah...that settles it for me on evolution.

The age of the earth, though...yes, that could be debatable.
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 PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:45 pm Reply with quote  
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  Rouge77
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I'm not any good in theology, but in question of how there can be free will if there is an omnipotent god, it's occasionally said that one could get around the problem by having this kind of god to view the universe in entirety. Time as such would not exist to a god, after all it would have to be the god's creation, and god would know all things from the beginning to an end, view the universe as a whole in space and time, even if persons theoretically would have free will. This ties to question so that our current way of counting time would have no meaning whatsoever to a god like that.

And of course there is far longer days than Earthly one in astronomy (and our current length of day is not the same as it once was nor what it once will be as the Earth's rotation has been slowly slowing down), but seriously I can't see them having any effect in the creation story in the Bible. It's the other way around, people about 600-400 BCE enshrining their society's way of using time and dividing days between work and leisure by making it something based on the action of their god.


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 PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:31 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Rouge77 wrote:
I love that the world around us can be explained, and that we can solve things that have been mysteries for humanity until our time. That's my choice.

That's funny because, for me, it's the exact opposite. I love unexplained things and 'unnatural' things that defy science and history books. Now about how long the days of creation were, my answer is simple: I don't know. Only God knows. Maybe someday I'll know or maybe not, not everything is for us to know.
And, no offense Rouge, but boy does that BCE make me cringe. Mad Laughing
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Where sky and water meet,
Where the waves grow sweet,
Doubt not, Reepicheep,
To find all you seek,
There is the utter east.


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 PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:54 pm Reply with quote  
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  Rouge77
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Reepicheep wrote:
That's funny because, for me, it's the exact opposite. I love unexplained things and 'unnatural' things that defy science and history books.


That's something that makes me cringe... Wink

Seriously spoken, I take no offense when others claim that, but it just astonishes me. It's a common feeling, but one that I have never been able to understand myself.

Reepicheep wrote:
And, no offense Rouge, but boy does that BCE make me cringe. Mad Laughing


No offense taken, but it's a neutral way of dating the years. And the BC style of dating isn't even shared by all Christians, some Eastern Churches count from the era of Diocleatian in memory of the oppression towards Christians then, and according to the now abandoned Byzantine calendar (which was also used in Russia) now is the year 7518 (or something like that) after the creation of the world.


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 PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:55 pm Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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[quote="Reepicheep"]
Rouge77 wrote:
And, no offense Rouge, but boy does that BCE make me cringe. Mad Laughing


Get used to it. The bible says that during the end times things will get worse and worse, not better. People are doing everything they can to take Christianity out of everyday life. Its not about being equal, its about eliminating Christianity. Look at what they are doing - taking bibles out of school, changing the date system, trying to take "under God" out of our pledge of allegiance, trying to take God off our currency, etc.

And whats is this stuff replaced by? Liberal ideology. Instead of letting you bring a bible to school, they now tell you should accept people of all different religions, that they are all equally viable. Basically, they tell you that your religion is wrong, and you should be ok with all the other ones out there. This is why America fails. We have incredibly hypocritical and intolerant people, and somehow their views are "fair."

Tolerance and equality is the biggest joke ever created. Tolerance used to mean that you listened to the opposing argument, thought about it from an honest and unbiased view, then formed an opinion that you stuck by. You would share this opinion with others, and if they didn't want to believe it then thats their choice. Nowadays "tolerance" means conforming to the liberal mind set, and any other idea or action is considered hostile and rebellious. Choice nowadays is becoming more rare by the day. Its already almost impossible to speak your mind in academic institutions for fear of a bad grade or disciplinary action.


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