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 PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 4:39 pm Reply with quote  
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  FatalFist
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I didnt reaaly understand the huge interview...too many bigwords Rolling Eyes
And she reaaaly shudve kept it a little short=/....

Clones were not treated properly by The Jedis??
Clones arent real humans!!!! Razz

Seriously....Clones are kinda like machines.....Palpatine gave the order...and BAM they killed all the Jedis Confused
IF they reaaly hated the Jedis and wanted to kill them anyways.....We wudve seen some clues no?...and killing the Jedi wasnt abt getting their =freedom=....it was just abt following orders...blindly...like a robot does.... Evil or Very Mad
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 PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 4:51 pm Reply with quote  
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  Mara Jade Skywalker
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I think she simply meant that they shouldn't be allowed to do everything, even if it's morally wrong, with no consequences. As if it's okay. And by those that agree in reality, she was disgusted. I have to agree. How could we possibly justify treating any sort of human being as a lesser form, simply to accomplish the end we're hoping for? It's like accepting the slavery our country used to practice. Treating the slaves as less than human, giving them less than or no rights, and forcing them to do our bidding. That's how the majority of the Jedi acted during the Clone Wars, and it was seen as okay. Traviss didn't like that viewpoint and decided to get detailed and flesh out why it was wrong. It pointed fingers at the Infallible Jedi, yes. But they aren't all perfect, are they? They must do some wrong sometimes. And with her Republic Commando books, Traviss pointed out one of their greatest failings: The treatment of the Clone army as less than human, and simply an expendable means to their end.
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 PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 4:58 pm Reply with quote  
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  FatalFist
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See the movie again...they kill the Jedis widout any remorse...for no other reason but becuz of an order.....

Or Perhaps KT likes to think that the Clone Troopers had tears brimming in their eyes while they shot the Jedis Confused ....The Helmets hid the emotions Rolling Eyes

CloneTroopers were part-robot for sure.......cant say abt that to evy clone...Borsk81 was amazing...BUt Them Republic Clone Troopers were only part-human at best...
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 PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:00 pm Reply with quote  
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  Mara Jade Skywalker
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They weren't part-human, they were simply overly conditioned to obey orders. Order 66 was a contingency order from the beginning. If the Chancellor issued it, then it meant the Jedi had revolted against the Republic. And the Clones served the Republic, not the Jedi. Had most of them stopped to question the order, then they wouldn't have made a very good army. Soldiers that question their leaders' orders are prone to cause problems. They shouldn't act completely like robots, either, though. And I don't believe they do. For the most part, I don't think the Clones had any love for the Jedi. If a Jedi general treated them like cannon fodder, where was the love there? They had never had any reason to respect them in such a case. Just check out Band of Brothers. The men of Easy Company hated Sobel, and eventually they got him replaced. So for the most part the Clones had no love for the Jedi. And when their Republic told them the Jedi had revolted and they were to be terminated, they followed orders. There were the few that knew the Jedi better than that, and they are the ones that hesitated. So...I would say that for the most part, they were just being good soldiers.
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 PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:59 pm Reply with quote  
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  Bill Thompson
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As much as I don't like KT's writing, I agree completely with her on the Clones and the Jedi. The Clones are slaves and the Jedi are their willing slave masters.
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 PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:12 pm Reply with quote  
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  Mara Jade Skywalker
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Ah, okay. I was kind of confused on your stance on that. But that clears that up. Smile
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 PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:36 pm Reply with quote  
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  jedipoodoo
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I'm going to miss Karen Traviss' contribution to StarWars, mostly because she tells "the other side's" viewpoint. I don't believe she "super powered" the Mandos; not anymore than any other author. I was just grateful for the story she told. It's just too bad that she couldn't iron out her differences with the editorial staff, I liked her work. And that's just my two bits.
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 PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:50 pm Reply with quote  
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  FatalFist
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PLus...It was a war...THe Clones were bred for fighting...ppl were gonna die, And Even if the Jedis Had HUman Soldiers....The Human and Clone death wudve been the same..fighting in thr frontline and all....You dont reaaly see a point wher the JEdis send some Clones on a hopeless mission to their death?(And even more horrible if it was simply a distraction.....that as far as i know dint happen.)( i cud be wrong///ive seen The Clone Wars...but only portions of it.... Sad
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 PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:13 am Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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Now of all the things Traviss has done, the de-robotization of the Clones would be the one canon altering factor that is truly worthy of debate. In the movies, Lucas clearly showed them to be brainwashed, bred soldiers highly optimized for following orders and fighting in combat. It is for that reason that 'humanizing' them is a very touchy subject because theoretically you shouldn't be able to humanize them too much. They were bred for their role. I would imagine the Kaminoans took measures to alter them from being pure clones. They were products after all.

Now the Clone Commandos allowed a lot of room for that humanization because they were understandably different, and that worked. But the standard front line clone should have been more dehumanized in order to stick to canon better. Traviss did go a little too far with trying to humanize them all.

However there is something to be said for the breaking of such conditioning and the fact that even bred/altered clones could be reconditioned through experience and time. Traviss did bring that in to help rationalize her humanization of them. Plus she altered the canon so that newer generations of clones were even less human than the earlier ones.
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 PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:09 am Reply with quote  
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  FatalFist
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I suppose a Lot of ppl here hav played SW-BattleFront2
In that the 401st talk abt how a LOT of missions wudve been impossibe widout the Jedis help...and in it the 401st guy also talks abt how =gud= The Jedis treated The Clones....

Its War...>I dont get it...U Fight wid the army u HAV....and if ur(The CLones) thrown into a tough fight...its not cuz the commander thinks ur cannon fodder its cuz it had to be done....Thats why ppl hate wars Wink
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 PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:21 am Reply with quote  
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  Jedi Joe
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I've never read Karen Traviss' books (yet), but I believe all the clones have a personality. There is nothing from the movies that shows the clones being brainwashed drones. They just followed orders, and followed them well. They were very dependent. Some of the other clones, such as ARCs and Commandos were independent and some probably didn't follow the order and went rogue. And many commanders used to be ARC troopers or had ARC training.
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 PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:13 pm Reply with quote  
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  Queen Padmè Skywalker
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I think I'll miss Traviss. Before she came along, I honestly never gave the clones much thought. Poor guys. But I did get tired of how anti-Jedi she was with some of her books. *shrugs*
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 PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:22 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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I'm anti-Jedi myself. Just look at the avatar Twisted Evil

But before Traviss, the clones were definitely stereotyped as human droids. But as they had to start doing comics, videogames, and cartoons of them, they realized that wasn't very entertaining, so they got altered. At least it seemed that way. Even Traviss only initially humanized the Commandos and ARCs.

Yet when Order 66 came, old vet's like Commander Cody unquestioningly vaped their Jedi superiors without hesitation. That shows a certain degree of brainwashed breeding/conditioning.
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 PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:58 pm Reply with quote  
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  Jedi Joe
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I'm also anti-Jedi, despite my name...

I don't think Cody was brainwashed, he was just trained to follow orders.
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 PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:11 am Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Disclaimer: I do not follow Jedi blindly, if they do something wrong I am aware of it and I do think the clone army idea would be wrong in real life.

Now then weren't the Jedi against the idea of a clone army ("So, it's done then"-Mace Windu)? It was Palpatine's bright idea so wouldn't it make sense that it is a wrong thing to do? I understand what Karen Traviss is saying I just think she got it wrong.
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