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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:38 pm Reply with quote  
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  Queen Padmè Skywalker
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Subject1157 wrote:


Was it him being whiny, complaining why life isn't fair? At least Little Anakin from episode 1 didn't allow the fact that he and his mother were slaves bother him. So why is the fact that he can't love and be a Jedi at the same time getting to him? Anakin did not heed Qui-Gon's advice but still, he needed to choose what life he wanted and he had that chance. It's not like the Council said "once you become a jedi you can't walk away". Many jedi left the order, Dooku was one of them.


I don't have a ton of time at the moment, but I did want to respond to this bit. Other Jedi walked away from the Order, sure, but it was an extremely difficult thing to do. Add to that the fact that Anakin was told from pretty much day one that he was "The Chosen One" and was destined to bring balance. I would say that just leaving wasn't really an option for him.

Anyhow, I can see why people don't like Anakin much, but he'll always be one of my favorites.
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 PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:52 am Reply with quote  
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  Subject1157
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Queen Padmè Skywalker wrote:
I don't have a ton of time at the moment, but I did want to respond to this bit. Other Jedi walked away from the Order, sure, but it was an extremely difficult thing to do. Add to that the fact that Anakin was told from pretty much day one that he was "The Chosen One" and was destined to bring balance. I would say that just leaving wasn't really an option for him.


I always got the sense that Anakin didn't have much belief in the prophecy or any for that matter. And also in the EU novel of Revenge of the Sith, there is a scene between Obi-Wan and Padme talking about Anakin being the chosen one. And Obi-Wan said that no where in the prophecy said Anakin had to be a Jedi.

Not to mention that there were constant reminders in the films and EU books where the Jedi Council were unsure about the prophecy. So I don't think it would of been a huge issue of Anakin decided to leave.

I respect everyone who does like Anakin. It's only a matter of opinion. I don't take it personally or go to a serious extreme level. I've met people who are like obsessed with Anakin and if anyone say something bad about him they get really upset. I got removed as a friend from a community site for saying I liked Obi-Wan better then Anakin O_o


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 PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:57 am Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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I think Anakin's character didn't allow for him to leave the Jedi Order, at least not without extreme leverage. Even after Anakin was 100% certain Padme was going to die and Palpatine offered him the only means by which he could save her and he knew that the Jedi would not help him save her and were, from his perspective, acting in a way that was undermining his attempts to save her, he still went and informed Mace Windu -- whom he doesn't have a good relationship with -- that Palpatine was the Sith Lord.

By the time Anakin had gotten married, he had spent more time with the Jedi Order than he had with his mother. They had become his family. Anakin is one who values his relationships, or attachments, above all else. He's really a complicated character in that sense, given his status as a Jedi that isn't supposed to have attachments.

I'd say the only reason he betrayed the Jedi Order was because his hand was forced by Mace Windu and Palpatine, and Palpatine had basically forced him into a decision which made him believe that his loyalty to the Jedi and his marriage to Padme had become wholly incompatible, and he was forced to completely burn that bridge. After he helped Palpatine kill Mace, he believed there was simply no way to go back to the tenuous, indecisive situation he was in prior to it where he tried to keep all his attachments around: Palpatine, the Jedi, and Padme. And obviously in his split second decision earlier, he had chosen Padme above all others, and salvaging the situation, he found Palpatine and Padme were more compatible than the Jedi and Padme.


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 PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:21 am Reply with quote  
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  Subject1157
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LivingJediDream wrote:
I think Anakin's character didn't allow for him to leave the Jedi Order, at least not without extreme leverage. Even after Anakin was 100% certain Padme was going to die and Palpatine offered him the only means by which he could save her and he knew that the Jedi would not help him save her and were, from his perspective, acting in a way that was undermining his attempts to save her, he still went and informed Mace Windu -- whom he doesn't have a good relationship with -- that Palpatine was the Sith Lord.

By the time Anakin had gotten married, he had spent more time with the Jedi Order than he had with his mother. They had become his family. Anakin is one who values his relationships, or attachments, above all else. He's really a complicated character in that sense, given his status as a Jedi that isn't supposed to have attachments.

I'd say the only reason he betrayed the Jedi Order was because his hand was forced by Mace Windu and Palpatine, and Palpatine had basically forced him into a decision which made him believe that his loyalty to the Jedi and his marriage to Padme had become wholly incompatible, and he was forced to completely burn that bridge. After he helped Palpatine kill Mace, he believed there was simply no way to go back to the tenuous, indecisive situation he was in prior to it where he tried to keep all his attachments around: Palpatine, the Jedi, and Padme. And obviously in his split second decision earlier, he had chosen Padme above all others, and salvaging the situation, he found Palpatine and Padme were more compatible than the Jedi and Padme.


I see your point. But I think Anakin jumped to the conclusion that the Jedi wouldn't help save Padme. I know the Jedi are selfless but the point is to save lives. And considering how important visions are to force users they would of taken his seriously, especially if they consider him the chosen one.

Anakin didn't really try to get help. He was being judgemental because of his frustration towards them. He knew what he was doing was wrong, getting married to Padme and keeping the secret of his mother's death, slaying dooku and whatever else he did. When he goes to kill the younglings he is crying, so he knows it is wrong what he is doing.

If he really believed what he was doing was right or even that going back to the Jedi was pointless and thought them evil then he shouldn't of had a problem killing younglings. Would the Jedi not do the same if they found Sith younglings or padawans???


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 PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:52 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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LivingJediDream wrote:
The entire Jedi Order is corrupted by the war, simply by fighting in it.


Oh, I think the Jedi were corrupted long before that.
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 PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:55 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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Subject1157 wrote:
Ok, lets say you all are right about Anakin, but here is my problem. I can not see Anakin as Darth Vader. I mean when you first watched the original trilogy what did you picture the former Vader was as a Jedi???

Was it him being whiny, complaining why life isn't fair? At least Little Anakin from episode 1 didn't allow the fact that he and his mother were slaves bother him. So why is the fact that he can't love and be a Jedi at the same time getting to him? Anakin did not heed Qui-Gon's advice but still, he needed to choose what life he wanted and he had that chance. It's not like the Council said "once you become a jedi you can't walk away". Many jedi left the order, Dooku was one of them.

The first two prequel movies were dominated by Queen Padme. It showed little anakin's story in the middle and then he just tagged along for the rest of the film. Episode 2 is focused on Padme, again! instead of learning more about Anakin and his training. Suddenly episode 3 has to rap everything up and it's done poorly, even film wise. Notice every scene after the battle of coruscant never lasts more then 2 minutes. It's cut, cut, cut here and there until we get to the duel which was more exhausting then entertaining.

I veiw Jacen's fall different then Anakin's. Jacen, unlike Anakin, had a very hard life. Constantly on the move, being watched by others instead of his parents. There was always danger and a threat and not long the Yuuzon Vong came. He was tortured to the point that it effected his mind. I understand why Jacen fell but I don't get how Anakin does. It's not clear enough and was very poorly written. (in my opinion).

Anakin lived in an era where there was releative peace, until Jacen. It's like Tahiri Veila said to Jaina and Jag in Outcast. Jacen could of broken at any of those events in his life.


Actually, yes. I did see Anakin as a former Jedi. Obi-Wan even stated that he was a pupil of his, until he turned to evil. Sure, 'former pupil' could always mean something else entirely, but to my mind there was never any doubt that he was a Jedi.

I disagree, too, with the belief that Anakin was not bothered by his slave life. In the dinner scene, in Episode I, he states he had a dream of becoming a Jedi and returning to free all the slaves. He even reveals that he's attempted to make a locator to find his slave chip. This same scene shows he wanted to be a Jedi quite a bit, so I don't think he'd walk away.

What else was there? Ah, yes. Of course, this is a matter of opinion, though it is my opinion that, of the PT, only Revenge of the Sith can be truly called Anakin's film. The first is the set up, where Anakin is a main character in name only. He is, to my mind, only used as a plot device to move things along. This is fine, because when you view it as a Saga, TPM is to be seen as only the set up, the prelude. The second, AOTC, sees Padme as the plot device, with Anakin coming more to prominence, but still, not his story. Instead, it's a story of the machinations of Sidious and Dooku, and the tale of the Clone Wars. I won't state my case for Episode III. It would be too long winded.

Too, I feel Anakin did indeed have a hard life. He was a slave, which can hardly be fun, to being seperated from his mother at a young age. He was taken away to be a Jedi, but was rejected. He was only accepted under special circumstances. He was then accepted into an Order that distrusted him, didn't want him, yet one that still placed a great burden on his shoulders - that of being the Chosen One. Later, he lost his mother, and fell for a woman he wasn't allowed to have. Then, he fought for three years in a largely pointless war. So, it sounds to me, he hasn't had such a grand ride, after all Wink .
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 PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:16 am Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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First thing, no I don't believe the Jedi would just kill Sith younglings. Sith apprentices (they aren't called padawans) might be a different story because it's likely the apprentices would engage the Jedi in combat, and it would be a duel to the death. Vestara did try to kill Luke until she realized she couldn't. Then she backed off and saluted him. Note: Luke did not go after her.

AS far as TPM goes, I don't think Anakin was just a plot device. He destroyed the droid control ship which the Jedi Council saw as Anakin being directed by the Force even in a raw, untrained state. They saw his potential and that's why they over-ruled Yoda and accepted him into the Jedi Order (it's in the book).

But as to the Jedi Order helping to save Padme, well, Yoda pretty much stated the party line to Anakin -- let go. Which is dumb considering it's Anakin we're talking about here. Obi-Wan seems to be the only one who got that Anakin was different, that you couldn't apply the same reasoning with him. That didn't come until into the Clone Wars when Obi-Wan realized he'd spent all those years using the standard Jedi stuff on Anakin and it wasn't working. Anakin was different and had to be mentored differently. Of course you've got Obi-Wan thinking this who's had a long history of his own issues with attachment. But that would be a 'nother thread.

But I would say that life certainly wasn't very fair to Anakin, starting with the circumstances of his birth. Idk if it was this thread or a different one but someone said they thought Jacen had a harder childhood than Anakin. Seriously? Jacen had two loving parents; he wasn't a slave who had to leave his mother behind as a slave. Jacen trained at the Praxeum with his Uncle Luke who was certainly a lot kinder and more understanding than the OJO. Jacen had his twin sister by his side all the time. In fact one thing that really bothers me in FOTJ is when Tahiri says that Jacen may have broken in his childhood -- like his childhood was full of crap. It wasn't. And if that's the case why didn't Jaina and Anakin Solo break as well?
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 PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:46 am Reply with quote  
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  Werehunter
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Cerrinea wrote:
In fact one thing that really bothers me in FOTJ is when Tahiri says that Jacen may have broken in his childhood -- like his childhood was full of crap. It wasn't. And if that's the case why didn't Jaina and Anakin Solo break as well?


I looked at that line and put it to her talking about the New Jedi Order era of books. Though mature, he was still a minor in most of those books. Plus it was Tahiri who was talking and she was several years younger then Jacen. So I can see her considering that time as part of his childhood. That's the only way that line makes sense.


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 PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:46 am Reply with quote  
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  Subject1157
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Cerrinea wrote:
Idk if it was this thread or a different one but someone said they thought Jacen had a harder childhood than Anakin. Seriously? Jacen had two loving parents; he wasn't a slave who had to leave his mother behind as a slave. Jacen trained at the Praxeum with his Uncle Luke who was certainly a lot kinder and more understanding than the OJO. Jacen had his twin sister by his side all the time. In fact one thing that really bothers me in FOTJ is when Tahiri says that Jacen may have broken in his childhood -- like his childhood was full of crap. It wasn't. And if that's the case why didn't Jaina and Anakin Solo break as well?


I'm not sure if you some it from another user but I did say that a few posts earlier. But I still think Anakin hadn't better off. As I said before he was borning during a time of peace and it's not like Obi-Wan didn't care for him. In Episode 3 he admitted loving anakin like a brother. Obi-Wan wanted the best and Anakin threw it all away.

Yes, Jacen did have loving parents but there were many times they weren't there for him and though he had a twin sister, it doesn't make everything better. Anakin was never tortured like Jacen was by the Yuuzahn Vong. Jacen nearly went mad in the process so I think that could of been the beginning of his fall.

Not to mention that Jacen lived in a different Jedi Order Era with families. There is alot of pressure on him when he is training Ben. If anything happens to Ben how would Luke and Mara respond. Even if they forgave him, he wouldn't be able to forgive himself.

In my opinion, Jacen has many more struggles then Anakin ever had.


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 PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:02 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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Well, you referred specifically to childhoods. That's what I was responding to; not Jacen's entire life.

Lucas used childhood and adulthood in Star Wars in the most common context throughout history. That is that one is a child until puberty and then one is an adult. There's no in between phase of adolescence. Adolescence is a fairly recent invention of Western Culture.

That's why Padme was a queen at 14 and why padawans started their apprenticeships at no later than 13.

Some of the authors didn't follow through with that concept very well, but since it's G-canon, I hold to it.
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 PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:03 pm Reply with quote  
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  Queen Padmè Skywalker
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Subject1157 wrote:


I always got the sense that Anakin didn't have much belief in the prophecy or any for that matter. And also in the EU novel of Revenge of the Sith, there is a scene between Obi-Wan and Padme talking about Anakin being the chosen one. And Obi-Wan said that no where in the prophecy said Anakin had to be a Jedi.


Cerrinea's opinion pretty much lines up with mine, but I wanted to point out that I always got the impression that the idea that The Chosen One didn't have to be a Jedi was something that Obi-Wan personally had begun to believe, not the Council or Order as a whole. I also think he had come to this conclusion because he simply knew Anakin best and was thinking of what would work best for Anakin, instead of confining him to the traditional Jedi way of life. Just my opinion. Smile
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So this is how liberty dies....with thunderous applause.



Those without swords can still die upon them

The world is a mess and I just need to rule it.


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 PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:22 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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I completely agree with you there, Padme. And the relationship between Anakin and Obi-Wan was so strong that Palpatine knew the only way he was going to turn Anakin was to get Obi-Wan out of the picture. he tried several times to kill Obi-Wan, and finally only succeeded getting Obi-Wan away with the Grevious bait.

Quote:
I looked at that line and put it to her talking about the New Jedi Order era of books. Though mature, he was still a minor in most of those books. Plus it was Tahiri who was talking and she was several years younger then Jacen. So I can see her considering that time as part of his childhood. That's the only way that line makes sense.


Werehunter, Tahiri said that specifically mentioning Jacen's separation in childhood from his parents. I just reread it a couple of days ago. But I agree, in it's context it really doesn't make sense. First off, Han and Leia decided to bring all the children home with them because hiding them wasn't working. Plus, Tahiri was already fighting in the YV war when all the horrible stuff happened to Jacen so she wouldn't have considered Jacen a child.
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 PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:12 pm Reply with quote  
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  Subject1157
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Queen Padmè Skywalker wrote:
but I wanted to point out that I always got the impression that the idea that The Chosen One didn't have to be a Jedi was something that Obi-Wan personally had begun to believe, not the Council or Order as a whole.


Then why did both Yoda and Mace continue to be unsure of the prophecy??? They questioned it from the beginning when Qui-Gon brought the issue up. And if they really did believe Anakin would be the one who would destroy the Sith why did Mace make him wait in the chambers??? O_o That never made sense to me. I mean he did kill Dooku. It's like they had lack of faith in him and the prophecy.

Cerrinea wrote:
Well, you referred specifically to childhoods. That's what I was responding to; not Jacen's entire life.

Sorry, I was meaning his young adult life, not childhood. I think I just added the word "childhood" because I was quoting Tahiri.


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 PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:09 pm Reply with quote  
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  Queen Padmè Skywalker
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Subject1157 wrote:
Queen Padmè Skywalker wrote:
but I wanted to point out that I always got the impression that the idea that The Chosen One didn't have to be a Jedi was something that Obi-Wan personally had begun to believe, not the Council or Order as a whole.


Then why did both Yoda and Mace continue to be unsure of the prophecy??? They questioned it from the beginning when Qui-Gon brought the issue up. And if they really did believe Anakin would be the one who would destroy the Sith why did Mace make him wait in the chambers??? O_o That never made sense to me. I mean he did kill Dooku. It's like they had lack of faith in him and the prophecy.


To me, it was more of a lack of faith that Anakin was in fact the Chosen One, not doubts about the prophecy itself. I think this is what Mace meant when he said that it was, "A prophecy that may have been misread," He's doubting that Anakin is the one referred to. I fully agree that Mace should have taken Anakin along when the Masters arrested Palpatine. Leaving him gave Palps the perfect setup. But it all came down to the fact that Mace disliked and mistrusted Anakin. He didn't think Anakin would be able to do what needed to be done to stop Palpatine, who had been kind of like an uncle to Anakin up to that point.
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So this is how liberty dies....with thunderous applause.



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 PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:42 pm Reply with quote  
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  Subject1157
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Queen Padmè Skywalker wrote:
To me, it was more of a lack of faith that Anakin was in fact the Chosen One, not doubts about the prophecy itself. I think this is what Mace meant when he said that it was, "A prophecy that may have been misread," He's doubting that Anakin is the one referred to. I fully agree that Mace should have taken Anakin along when the Masters arrested Palpatine. Leaving him gave Palps the perfect setup. But it all came down to the fact that Mace disliked and mistrusted Anakin. He didn't think Anakin would be able to do what needed to be done to stop Palpatine, who had been kind of like an uncle to Anakin up to that point.

Hey look, we agree on something Razz

I was never fond of Mace due to his lack of faith in most anything, other then himself. It is interesting how in the novel of revenge of the sith he is amazed that Anakin defeats Dooku but comes to the assumption that Anakin wouldn't be able to face Sidious.

I'll give to the fact that part of Anakin's fall had to do with his frustration towards the lack of faith and trust in him, although he did give reasons in the past not to completely trust him. But Lucas should of cut all the whiny bits of him in the films and make him act his age. It's unrealistic how little anakin from episode 1 seems very mature for his age and yet in episode 2 and 3 he loses that maturity. Lucas doesn't understand about character growth.


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