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 PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:54 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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It's obvious that Mace doesn't trust Anakin, but he sensed the conflict in Anakin. I always thought Mace was also protecting Anakin because of that.

Obi-Wan also told Anakin that the Council didn't trust Palpatine, and here we have Anakin close to the supreme chancellor and Palpatine pushing Anakin on the Council. There was a lot contributing to Mace's distrust, not just Anakin.
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 PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:18 pm Reply with quote  
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  Queen Padmè Skywalker
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Cerrinea wrote:
It's obvious that Mace doesn't trust Anakin, but he sensed the conflict in Anakin. I always thought Mace was also protecting Anakin because of that.

Obi-Wan also told Anakin that the Council didn't trust Palpatine, and here we have Anakin close to the supreme chancellor and Palpatine pushing Anakin on the Council. There was a lot contributing to Mace's distrust, not just Anakin.


This is true, but I still feel that Mace allowed his misgivings to influence his decision there. Did he actually expect Anakin to simply sit in the Temple while Palpatine was dealt with? Allowing Anakin to come accompany the Master would have shown some loyalty and trust on Mace's part and may have tipped the balance in the Jedi's favor. But, of course, we'll never know.
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 PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:38 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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Oh, I agree with you Padme. I always thought Mace and Yoda were pretty judgmental about Anakin because he wasn't the typical Jedi. It never crossed their minds that they were wrong about what a typical Jedi should be.

I always like that Master Thracia Cho Leem stood up for Anakin and stated right out in the Council chambers that Yoda had never understood human children.

I know that Yoda is revered and that's been the line all the way through the EU, but I blame Yoda and his rigid ways for a lot in regards to the destruction of the OJO.
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 PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:12 pm Reply with quote  
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  Subject1157
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Cerrinea wrote:
I always thought Mace and Yoda were pretty judgmental about Anakin because he wasn't the typical Jedi. It never crossed their minds that they were wrong about what a typical Jedi should be.

That was one of my major disappointments with the prequels is Yoda's character is very off compared to the original trilogy. I found it amusing how strongly they argued about training Anakin and yet at the end of Episode 3 Yoda said they wouldn't train the twins but wait. O_o So, first Yoda is against attachments and then he doesn't care if Luke and Leia are raised by families which in the Jedi Order's mind is not a way for the Jedi to live and they are their last hope.

Cerrinea wrote:
I always like that Master Thracia Cho Leem stood up for Anakin and stated right out in the Council chambers that Yoda had never understood human children.

Rogue Planet had continued the maturity we saw in Anakin from Episode 1. I really enjoyed the novel and thought it really did well with Anakin's character. But Episodes 2 and 3 just didn't comtribute to that, in my opinion.


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 PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:16 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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Subject1157 wrote:
Cerrinea wrote:
I always thought Mace and Yoda were pretty judgmental about Anakin because he wasn't the typical Jedi. It never crossed their minds that they were wrong about what a typical Jedi should be.

That was one of my major disappointments with the prequels is Yoda's character is very off compared to the original trilogy. I found it amusing how strongly they argued about training Anakin and yet at the end of Episode 3 Yoda said they wouldn't train the twins but wait. O_o So, first Yoda is against attachments and then he doesn't care if Luke and Leia are raised by families which in the Jedi Order's mind is not a way for the Jedi to live and they are their last hope.

Cerrinea wrote:
I always like that Master Thracia Cho Leem stood up for Anakin and stated right out in the Council chambers that Yoda had never understood human children.

Rogue Planet had continued the maturity we saw in Anakin from Episode 1. I really enjoyed the novel and thought it really did well with Anakin's character. But Episodes 2 and 3 just didn't comtribute to that, in my opinion.


Well, to be fair to Yoda ROTS novel goes more in depth into why Yoda decided it was better to wait. In effect, he did recognize how wrong he'd been. I really wish that had been in the movie.

Of course, that's negated in ESB when he says to Obi-Wan that Luke's too old. But I kind of always felt that was more of a token protest because he gave in so easily.

I too enjoyed Rogue Planet and don't understand why a lot of fans don't.
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 PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:23 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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I think Yoda's decision not to train the twins from birth was because he realized that his prior dogma was incorrect. That Anakin was trained at age nine onward wasn't the issue, so much as he was expected to follow all the other dogma as well, such as eliminating attachments that he had already made as a child and simply wasn't capable of eliminating at his age.

I'd also like to think that Anakin's aptitude with the Force is what led to his arrogance, and that also led his fall, among other things. He's basically on the verge of becoming a teenager, and is told that he's the messiah and taught how to use superpowers that are above and beyond what any other Jedi Knight has. By the time of Episode III, he thinks he's more powerful than anyone on the Jedi Council. Delaying the training of his children meant they got through the self-absorbed age without having that sort of power.

When Lucas wrote Episode I, the reason that he wrote Anakin so young was that he wanted the separation from his mother to be a traumatic event in his life that helped define him and his flaws that led to his becoming Vader.

Lucas seems like a decent writer when it comes to writing the story, but when it comes to the nitty gritty of dialog is where he fails. I think he actually had a really good setup for Anakin to become Vader with his attachment to his mother and the absence of the father figure. Qui-Gon comes to take on the father role for Anakin in the movie and behaves in a rather fatherly way. Through the course of the movie, he loses both figures as Qui-Gon dies and he's separated from his mother. So no wonder he becomes clingy, and fears about his mother's well-being.

To some extent, Padme also becomes the mother figure in Episode I despite being only slightly older than Anakin, and I think that's where he begins transferring that sort of attachment to her. The void left by Qui-Gon is filled by both Obi-Wan and Palpatine. I think that from 1994 onward Anakin's characterization was basically set in the sense that Lucas had decided upon that sort of a story, and it follows from Episode I that Anakin would become an overconfident teenager with attachment issues.

Edit: Yoda's protest that Luke is too old seemed like it was another test of Luke, even before the prequels, IMO. Leia and Luke are their last hopes, they admit as much in the same film. There's no way he's not training Luke.

Edit 2: I forgot to add with Obi-Wan and Palpatine becoming father figures, that Obi-Wan becomes the kind of father figure that teens have that they hate because he undoubtedly looked up to Obi-Wan from when they met onward in Episode I, and by the time he became a teenager and older he started to feel that he was Obi-Wan's equal and realized that Obi-Wan wasn't infallible as he had thought as a child, as most teens do with their parents. Meanwhile, Qui-Gon exists as sort of an impossible father figure to live up to because he only has his brief positive experience with Qui-Gon to compare Obi-Wan to, which Obi-Wan can't possibly meet. Palpatine escaped this sort of criticism since all he did was feed Anakin's ego, and probably didn't have as much time spent with Anakin. And his mother and Padme never saw Anakin during this phase of his life.


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 PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:31 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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LJD, I agree with you about 100%. Stover pretty much wrote Yoda as realizing he'd been wrong. I think this is one reason why Yoda went into such a solitary exile.

I also think Anakin was arrogant about his Force strength. Jedi Quest series pretty much has that as one of it's themes. It also went into the burden of being "the Chosen One" from different angles. Jedi Apprentice really does a good job of showcasing why Obi-Wan became the Jedi he was and how in many ways he's exactly the right master for Anakin -- when he doesn't let the orthodox Jedi line get in the way.

Karen Miller drew a lot on Jude Watson in Wild Space, and worked it really well, making what were considered Obi-Wan's weaknesses in JA his strengths. Which in turn led to explaining the deep relationship between Anakin and Obi-Wan.
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 PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:35 pm Reply with quote  
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  Queen Padmè Skywalker
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Cerrinea wrote:


Well, to be fair to Yoda ROTS novel goes more in depth into why Yoda decided it was better to wait. In effect, he did recognize how wrong he'd been. I really wish that had been in the movie.

Of course, that's negated in ESB when he says to Obi-Wan that Luke's too old. But I kind of always felt that was more of a token protest because he gave in so easily.

I too enjoyed Rogue Planet and don't understand why a lot of fans don't.


I agree with all of the above, except that I wasn't thrilled with the way the portrayal of the Blood Carver's death was handled in Rogue Planet. Otherwise, I thought it was a good book.

I also agree with Jedi about what caused Anakin's arrogance and rashness in his early adulthood. He was basically told, "You're gonna save all of us. You have power no one else has ever dreamed of. Oh, but you're going to do this our way. Our strictly controlled, rigid way. And by the way, we're now expecting a nine year old who was raised by normal human standards up to this point to never be attached to anyone ever again. Deal, kid,"
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 PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:38 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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I'd like to see an alternate universe in which Qui-Gon trained Anakin, going in line with my stated desire in another thread to see an AU in which Anakin doesn't become Vader. Given Qui-Gon's not-by-the-book style, in contrast to Obi-Wan, it seems that he would have been the master that Yoda would have selected for Anakin had, at the end of Episode III, he been given the ability to go back and do it. What I took away from Stover's novelization of the film is that Yoda realized Qui-Gon had it figured out all along, but the Jedi were so stagnant that he was viewed as a radical and dismissed.

That's not to say that Obi-Wan did a bad job, and were circumstances different, i.e. if Palpatine wasn't playing the Jedi like a drum and Obi-Wan never left Coruscant in Episode III, I don't think that Anakin would have turned. But I think under Qui-Gon, Anakin wouldn't have developed the inner turmoil that he has in Episode III, because he wouldn't feel that he needed to hide anything, at the very least not from Qui-Gon. I wonder if Obi-Wan's "don't ask, don't tell" policy played right into Palpatine's hand because Anakin seemed oblivious to it, so he essentially enabled Anakin's behavior while Anakin was none the wiser to it, and still felt as though he were breaking the rules. Qui-Gon, on the other hand, seems like he would have had a more open line of communication with Anakin in these sort of things. This way, Anakin could seek advice about stuff that he would not ask Obi-Wan about, and Anakin wouldn't have been left without guidance (except Palpatine's!) during Episode III.


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 PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:45 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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See, I'm not convinced Qui Gon would have been a better master. He was a flawed master to Obi-Wan. As well, he didn't pay enough attention to the Unifying Force. And maybe Anakin and Qui Gon were a little too much alike. Obi-Wan balanced the master/padawan team better.
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 PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:48 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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Cerrinea wrote:
See, I'm not convinced Qui Gon would have been a better master. He was a flawed master to Obi-Wan. As well, he didn't pay enough attention to the Unifying Force. And maybe Anakin and Qui Gon were a little too much alike. Obi-Wan balanced the master/padawan team better.


I don't buy that Qui-Gon didn't pay enough attention to the Unifying Force. Qui-Gon's modus operandi of following the Force/fate, e.g. taking Jar Jar with him or taking Anakin with him, is all about following the Unifying Force, which is what governs destiny. Qui-Gon seems to give an awful lot of heed toward destiny in the film because it's the driving force of Episode I. That's why I said back in the Qui-Gon thread several weeks ago that I think the Expanded Universe made a big mistake in writing that stuff because it seemed to me that it was written without understanding what it meant.


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 PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:51 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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Actually there's a big clue at the beginning of TPM that Qui Gon is overly focused on the Living Force at the expense of the Unifying Force. When Obi-Wan tells him he senses something elusive, Qui Gon tells him to keep his focus on the here and now. I always wonder what would happen if Qui Gon had payed more attention to that.
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 PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:53 pm Reply with quote  
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Cerrinea wrote:
Actually there's a big clue at the beginning of TPM that Qui Gon is overly focused on the Living Force at the expense of the Unifying Force. When Obi-Wan tells him he senses something elusive, Qui Gon tells him to keep his focus on the here and now. I always wonder what would happen if Qui Gon had payed more attention to that.


There's nothing that the Jedi could have done about it at the time though, which is Qui-Gon's point. Obi-Wan's spider sense is going off about the Sith, presumably, but they have no way of finding out about the Sith. It's more beneficial for them to be focused upon the present situation, because if Obi-Wan is preoccupied with this distant feeling he can't place and can do nothing about, he might not have sensed their ship being destroyed.

I think Qui-Gon is the ideal Jedi, he had the perfect blend. And I think Stover hinted that in the novel, and Stover is a self-professed Obi-Wan fanboy.

Edit: And part of the problem with the Jedi was that they were simply too focused upon the bigger picture which they simply couldn't see, as they find out in Episode II due to the "shroud of the dark side." Palpatine was able to lead them around by the nose while they tried to figure out what was going on. Whereas, in Episode I, with Qui-Gon leading the charge, he completely mucked up Palpatine's original plan.


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 PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:58 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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Well, since they blew the ship up in the hanger, I'm pretty sure that wouldn't have been hard to detect. Wink

I always got the sense that Obi-Wan was sensing the Sith as well. It's still a shame that wasn't explored further, especially when the Jedi all knew there was another Sith out there.

About Qui Gon bringing Jar Jar along. I never thought that was any kind of Force sense. I just think it was a case of an older and more experienced master taking advantage of someone he needed as opposed to a padawan who obviously didn't like Jar Jar.

Now Anakin was obviously a Force thing, but Anakin was hugely strong in the Force. That wouldn't have been hard for a Jedi master to miss. It wasn't until Qui Gon asked Shmi about Anakin's birth that he went the "Chose One" route.
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 PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:01 pm Reply with quote  
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My interpretation was that the Jedi only sensed the ship exploding, and were too far from the hangar to hear it. Otherwise it seems dumb that they blew it up before dealing with the Jedi; the Neimodians seemed to think that the Jedi wouldn't notice that their ship was destroyed first, unaware of their Force sensing abilities.

As for taking Jar Jar, I don't think it needs to be a Force thing. Like in Traitor how Jacen sees Anakin twice, but neither time is actually Anakin as a Force ghost, does it really matter what the mechanism is? The Force doesn't need to have one way to speak to a person. In Qui-Gon's view, the fact that he ran into Jar Jar at all was a sign from the Force.


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