Log in to check your private messages
Force Philosophy v1
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The EUCantina Forums Forum Index » The Expanded Universe: Literature & Media View previous topic :: View next topic  
 PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:36 am Reply with quote  
Message
  Old Master Ben
Administrator
Administrator

Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 2257
Location: Georgia

Here's the thing; the will of the Force doesn't have morals, does it? How could it? I think the will of the Force exists, but if it does good or bad is only our opinion. It wouldn't have an opinion, or sides. So yes, it is there, but it doesn't do things for people, and it doesn't do things with the intent of good or evil. It's just there, and it just happens. I don't think it has motivation to do good or bad.

I think an excellent view of the Force can be found in the ROTS novel. If you read the beginning of chapter 7, it shows in extreme detail how the Force works for Obi-wan. It says that Obi-wan had not had the Force opened up to him so clearly since before Naboo. Why? The dark-side clouds everything. That's interesting though, for people like myself who think dark-side and light-side only exist in a persons point of view. If the dark-side isn't a true part of the Force, than why was the Force clouding the Jedi's vision for years? Was this the will of the Force, in order to keep the Jedi ignorant to Palpatine? If it was the will of the Force, then it wasn't doing something bad, or good. It was just working towards balance (I like Caedus' example).

Anyway, if you continue in the chapter, it gives an excellent view of how the Force worked for Obi-wan when the cloud of the dark-side was gone.
\
I'm going to quote some parts I found interesting. These spoiler warning are just to keep my post shorter; I think we all know what happens in ROTS. Wink I encourage you to read if you get the chance, I think these quotes will help in this discussion.

Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)


Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)


Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)


Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)


Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)


Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)


Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)


Now, in comparison, let's look at how Palpatine suggests the Force be used. You will not that Obi-Wan let's the Force control him. Not so for Palpatine. Perhaps this is the difference between the "light" and "dark"?

This is from chapter 15 of ROTS.

Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)


I think what Palpatine is saying here is wrong. Personally, I think that Obi-Wan was the ultimate Jedi, for the fact that he would only open himself to the Force. He let the Force make up his mind. Is this not the smartest thing one can do? Look at Anakin. In using emotions to decide his actions, instead of the Force, he destroyed nearly the entire Jedi order, lost his wife, and lived a miserable life as Darth Vader. Now, I think it was the will of the Force for all of this to happen, in order to bring balance. But if Anakin had used the Force to guide him, perhaps none of these things would have happened. Perhaps he could have brought balance without the mess he caused.


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address

 PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:36 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Darth Skuldren
Moderator
Moderator

Joined: 04 Feb 2008
Posts: 6247
Location: Missouri

Good points. But there's something keeping it from being that simple. If all one did was let the Force guide you, then how did all these Jedi make so many mistakes? Even Obi-Wan? Following the Force would seem to keep one in the light side, or good side, but it is still filtered through a person and is flawed, thus preventing perfect Jedi.

However, the way Stover portrayed The Dark in LSATSOM clearly showed an aspect of the Force with a mind/conscience with ill intent. The Will of the Dark wanted to destroy. It craved destruction.

Perhaps it can all be understood better from a Hindu viewpoint: that the light and the dark are both part of the Force, as are hundreds of other aspects and versions, and that these aspects can have minds of their own, and yet still be apart of some greater will comprised of all these things. Part of the Force, part of its nature, is to destroy because in order to create, one must destroy. Naturally another part would want to create. The overall mind of the Force would want balance in order to insure self-preservation, to maintain the circle of life.

In that view, things might make a little more sense and account for all the inconsistencies.
_________________

"I believe toys resonate with us as humans, we can hold them them, it's tactile, real! They are totems for our extended beliefs and imaginations. A fetish for ideas that hold as much interest and passion as old religious relics for some. We display them in our homes. They show who we are. They are signals for similar thinking people. A way we connect with each other...and I guess thats why I do toys. That connection." -Ashley Wood


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:57 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Old Master Ben
Administrator
Administrator

Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 2257
Location: Georgia

Well, you hit it right on. The Force is being used by flawed people. People who forget, or struggle to always let the Force guide them. I'm not sure a person could allow the Force to guide them always, because people are flawed. I'm saying that if someone did let the Force guide them at all times, it would make them the perfect Jedi.


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address

 PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:48 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  illogicalRogue2
Administrator
Administrator

Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 2851
Location: ....last know presence was near the Tingel Arm..

I always saw the "Guided by the Force" and "Controlling the Force" as techniques by the Jedi and Sith.

But yes many Jedi are not as attuned to the Force as they should be. Hence so many fail to hear the Force's will.

As to the 2 sides of the Will- I say yes- as a person has more then one side of it's personality so too does the Force. What the Force does IS.


Choice in the SWU is the illusion, Fate is the reality that ends up being.

So was the Jedi's being blinded by the DS the Will of the Force or the actions of the Sith? The Answer being the Will of the Force THROUGH The actions of the Sith.

The life factor means that things are always in motion- but once the action has been cast the moment is locked in place. so as I see it applied to SWU they seem to have choices, but in the end what choices are made were meant to be made.

As in if say Luke had not killed Lumiya- some how some way it would have happened. the hows and why may have changed but he still did what he was destined to do.

Same with Raynar on the Tachyon Flyer- Fate meant for Raynar to escape, using Jacen as a means to motivate Raynar. then later Jacen filling his role by fate comes to the ship and flow walks to that point and "makes real" his action that was destined.
_________________

-Bring on your thousands, one at a time or all in a rush. I don't give a damn. None shall pass.
-
-To become a Jedi, it is not the Force one must learn to control but oneself.
-
-Podcasts: Star Wars Beyond the Films, The Star Wars Report, & EUCast


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger

 PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:21 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  illogicalRogue2
Administrator
Administrator

Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 2851
Location: ....last know presence was near the Tingel Arm..

Quick question:

Was anyone else disappointed/ Let down by the Aaing Tii? I felt their view of the the Force was much more limited then I would have thought. After all these are the only ones who can "teleport things" with the Force.

I have long noticed the EU makes things grander then the original scope of the films, and then later they try to reign it in and make it more like G:'s original vision. then you have powers like Flow Walking taking on new aspects of itself.


So my question is which version of the Force do you prefer?
a.) The ONLY 2 sides as GL gave us (The Force and it's Dark Side)
b.) The EU's version that is almost limit less (currently consisting of all Force Traditions known and unknown)
c.) No sides just the Force and the person's intent
d.) None of the above - it's something else still.
_________________

-Bring on your thousands, one at a time or all in a rush. I don't give a damn. None shall pass.
-
-To become a Jedi, it is not the Force one must learn to control but oneself.
-
-Podcasts: Star Wars Beyond the Films, The Star Wars Report, & EUCast


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger

 PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:29 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Queen Padmè Skywalker
Master
Master

Joined: 17 Jul 2009
Posts: 5082
Location: Sitting in front of a fireplace on Naboo exchanging pathetic dialogue with Anakin

I tend to go with the light/dark aspect, but I'm not overly strict about it.
_________________
All things die, Anakin Skywalker, even stars burn out.

So this is how liberty dies....with thunderous applause.



Those without swords can still die upon them

The world is a mess and I just need to rule it.


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:42 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  illogicalRogue2
Administrator
Administrator

Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 2851
Location: ....last know presence was near the Tingel Arm..

Queen Padmè Skywalker wrote:
I tend to go with the light/dark aspect, but I'm not overly strict about it.


Part of me has always felt that the Dark Side was created by Sentience. That the beings of the SWU through their actions corrupted a part of the Force, and that part became the Dark Side that IS seeking to turn you.


And that it does so through you. It can effect you, but in the end you have to openly make the actions that condemn you, not it. though it has helped.
_________________

-Bring on your thousands, one at a time or all in a rush. I don't give a damn. None shall pass.
-
-To become a Jedi, it is not the Force one must learn to control but oneself.
-
-Podcasts: Star Wars Beyond the Films, The Star Wars Report, & EUCast


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger

 PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:50 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  kurtdc
Master
Master

Joined: 15 May 2008
Posts: 602
Location: boston

So my question is which version of the Force do you prefer?
a.) The ONLY 2 sides as GL gave us (The Force and it's Dark Side)
b.) The EU's version that is almost limit less (currently consisting of all Force Traditions known and unknown)
c.) No sides just the Force and the person's intent
d.) None of the above - it's something else still.



My current philosophy is sort of a combo of B and C.

Regarding choice B, I like that there are various little sects of force users. I also like that they are kept "small". I would not like if they became more powerful or widespread than the mainstream jedi or sith.

From there is where is think choice C applies. Any individual can choose the path of the jedi or sith. I don't know if it's reasonable for a human to be one of the baron do sages or aing ti monks(since they seem race specific), but a human could choose the path of the jeneari(sp?) or the followers of the white current.


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:27 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  illogicalRogue2
Administrator
Administrator

Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 2851
Location: ....last know presence was near the Tingel Arm..

kurtdc wrote:
So my question is which version of the Force do you prefer?
a.) The ONLY 2 sides as GL gave us (The Force and it's Dark Side)
b.) The EU's version that is almost limit less (currently consisting of all Force Traditions known and unknown)
c.) No sides just the Force and the person's intent
d.) None of the above - it's something else still.



My current philosophy is sort of a combo of B and C.

Regarding choice B, I like that there are various little sects of force users. I also like that they are kept "small". I would not like if they became more powerful or widespread than the mainstream jedi or sith.

From there is where is think choice C applies. Any individual can choose the path of the jedi or sith. I don't know if it's reasonable for a human to be one of the baron do sages or aing ti monks(since they seem race specific), but a human could choose the path of the jeneari(sp?) or the followers of the white current.



Agreed B&C are the ones I most subscribe to at present.
_________________

-Bring on your thousands, one at a time or all in a rush. I don't give a damn. None shall pass.
-
-To become a Jedi, it is not the Force one must learn to control but oneself.
-
-Podcasts: Star Wars Beyond the Films, The Star Wars Report, & EUCast


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger

 PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:16 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Queen Padmè Skywalker
Master
Master

Joined: 17 Jul 2009
Posts: 5082
Location: Sitting in front of a fireplace on Naboo exchanging pathetic dialogue with Anakin

After thinking it over, I think it's A and B for me.
_________________
All things die, Anakin Skywalker, even stars burn out.

So this is how liberty dies....with thunderous applause.



Those without swords can still die upon them

The world is a mess and I just need to rule it.


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 7:21 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Old Master Ben
Administrator
Administrator

Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 2257
Location: Georgia

I guess I would go with a combination of B and C.


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address

 PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:09 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  illogicalRogue2
Administrator
Administrator

Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 2851
Location: ....last know presence was near the Tingel Arm..

Old Master Ben wrote:
I guess I would go with a combination of B and C.


Though for me B is a full circle one that has GLs 2 sides in there somewhere but not as THE dominating version. Just one of many ways to look at it.

But I have to factor in intent in some way.
_________________

-Bring on your thousands, one at a time or all in a rush. I don't give a damn. None shall pass.
-
-To become a Jedi, it is not the Force one must learn to control but oneself.
-
-Podcasts: Star Wars Beyond the Films, The Star Wars Report, & EUCast


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger

 PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:16 am Reply with quote  
Message
  Darth Skuldren
Moderator
Moderator

Joined: 04 Feb 2008
Posts: 6247
Location: Missouri

Well technically (A) should be The Force and it having two sides: the dark and the light, because Obi-Wan says in the films "the Dark Side of the Force" so the Dark Side is simply a side of the Force, as is the light side.

Now with a lot of the other Force groups, I like to look at it not so much that they are using different sides of the Force, but that they are simply using different methods to access it and have different philosophies about it. They're still tapping into the light and dark sides of the Force.

I think the whole rainbow analogy the Aing-Tii throw around is confusing. How can there be anything other than the Light and the Dark Side of the Force? But to answer that, you have to establish what the Light and Dark Side is.

Is it a matter of good and evil? Is it a matter of defensive and offensive Force powers? Is it a matter of allowing the Force to act on you or to act upon the Force?

All of these aspects have been attributed to the Light and Dark Side of the Force, but I've never heard anyone definitively say just what each side is. That's a question I'd like George Lucas to answer.
_________________

"I believe toys resonate with us as humans, we can hold them them, it's tactile, real! They are totems for our extended beliefs and imaginations. A fetish for ideas that hold as much interest and passion as old religious relics for some. We display them in our homes. They show who we are. They are signals for similar thinking people. A way we connect with each other...and I guess thats why I do toys. That connection." -Ashley Wood


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:53 am Reply with quote  
Message
  comanderbly
Master
Master

Joined: 29 Feb 2008
Posts: 745
Location: Denver

B and C for me.

I have always liked the idea that its more about the person than the force - we are our own worst enemy after all.


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

 PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 5:20 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  illogicalRogue2
Administrator
Administrator

Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 2851
Location: ....last know presence was near the Tingel Arm..

Darth Skuldren wrote:
Well technically (A) should be The Force and it having two sides: the dark and the light, because Obi-Wan says in the films "the Dark Side of the Force" so the Dark Side is simply a side of the Force, as is the light side.


See that's just it it's never called "the light side" in the films, just "the Force" and it's Dark Side.

Darth Skuldren wrote:

Now with a lot of the other Force groups, I like to look at it not so much that they are using different sides of the Force, but that they are simply using different methods to access it and have different philosophies about it. They're still tapping into the light and dark sides of the Force.


Agreed. Technique matters as much as intent sometimes Wink But yes, the traditional Jedi would still just see it as light and dark and find a way to drop the person into one category.


Quote:
I think the whole rainbow analogy the Aing-Tii throw around is confusing. How can there be anything other than the Light and the Dark Side of the Force? But to answer that, you have to establish what the Light and Dark Side is.


I see it as the coin, as a whole it's one, it has what appears to be 2 obvious sides (Heads/ Light vs Tails/ Dark Side) yet if you examine it more closely you'll notice that the edge between the two is perforated, and in those groves we discover multiple facets of the coin.and we get a view of the makings of the coin, it's copper center and the like. Kind of like those who drift between "Light and Dark" and their POV on the Jedi and Sith. It's different because they are seeing it in a much more broad term.
Quote:

Is it a matter of good and evil? Is it a matter of defensive and offensive Force powers? Is it a matter of allowing the Force to act on you or to act upon the Force?


I think this was the issue of Luke's order, they started to worry too much about WHAT and WHY and failed to act at all. BUt on the same side Kyp's faction was acting out on their own.
Quote:

All of these aspects have been attributed to the Light and Dark Side of the Force, but I've never heard anyone definitively say just what each side is. That's a question I'd like George Lucas to answer.


I don't know, it gets back to if one only goes with the Force as veiwed by the Jedi and Sith, which IMO GL would only worry about that. I think the Force is bigger, as is it's Will. But I did enjoy the Essential Guide to the Force.
_________________

-Bring on your thousands, one at a time or all in a rush. I don't give a damn. None shall pass.
-
-To become a Jedi, it is not the Force one must learn to control but oneself.
-
-Podcasts: Star Wars Beyond the Films, The Star Wars Report, & EUCast


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger

Post new topic   Reply to topic    The EUCantina Forums Forum Index » The Expanded Universe: Literature & Media

Page 2 of 7
All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

Display posts from previous:

  

Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
Jedi Knights 2 by Scott Stubblefield