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The Death Penalty
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The Death Penalty
 PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 10:31 am Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Here's something we haven't discussed. What do you guys think about the death penalty. Personally I think it's stupid. How can you say someone is wrong by commiting murder and then do it yourself? Think about it the prisoner in question is restrained with no way to defend himself/herself; it's a cold-blooded murder. That said I don't agree with parole and stuff like that, I think murderers should be locked in jail with the key thrown away. That's just me. Wink
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Last edited by Reepicheep on Sun Feb 28, 2010 1:41 pm; edited 1 time in total


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 PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 12:14 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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I'm for it. Some people cannot be fixed, and to keep them incarcerated for the rest of their lives creates a financial burden on the entire tax paying country. IF prisons were a bit more harsh (no tv's, weight rooms, or McDonalds) then maybe I'd be in favor of life sentences for murderers, regardless of the financial burden, simply because it would be a better punishment. But they way prison is, it's not so much a punishment as just a different lifestyle. Make prison harsher and I'll accept life sentences for them (because then it's really punishment). Otherwise, get rid of them.
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 PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 1:08 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Darth Skuldren wrote:
I'm for it. Some people cannot be fixed, and to keep them incarcerated for the rest of their lives creates a financial burden on the entire tax paying country.

This is the thing that has irked me about politics ever since I was little (didn't like 'em then, don't like 'em now). It costs money, therfore we can't do it. To me if it's the right thing to do, do it regardless of if it's painful, hard and, most of all, if it costs money. I consider human life much, much higher than money ie; I'd be willing to pay higher taxes if it meant getting rid of the death penalty. I might be naive, but then I'm proudly naive.

I think a prison with TVs, weight rooms and McDonalds is still a punishment. You're still in the same building for the rest of your life, spending your days with other dregs of society and never being able to move onto bigger and better things. You're pretty much stuck in the same day forever (ie; Groundhog Day Wink ) If you take those things away, I think it's very cruel to keep people staring at walls for the rest of their lives, think what it would do to your mind. Confused

However, our motives are different. You want them to be punished and I just want them off the streets (with a little punishment thrown in... within reason) so they can't do any more harm. I wouldn't want murderers getting off easy (because then others will join in for lack of consequence), but I also wouldn't want them killed (disregard for human life). Spending the rest of their days in prison sounds good to me.
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 PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 1:23 pm Reply with quote  
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  Queen Padmè Skywalker
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I'm most definitely for it. The Bible clearly states that the price for deliberately taking a life is that the murderer's life is forfeit. The only thing great enough to atone for a life is a life. However, if the killing was accidental, I would never advocate the death penalty for the killer.
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 PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:21 pm Reply with quote  
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  FatalFist
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Im for it...if it was upto me...rape and murder wud be two crimes that shud be punishable by death.
However, As far as murdering goes...If it was for revenge,or perhaps say that a guy took the law into his own hands, I'd vote for a softer-punishment. But besides that I think locking up a guy for murder is just mis-using the tax payers money.

Murder and rape are two crimes that are absolutely revolting, when a guy commits such actions, hes beyond help imo.

Cant think of anyother crimes that shud be punishable by death.
=============
I think i read somewher a LOT depends on the repentance shown by a murderer b4 they decide on wat sort of punishment that shud be handed out.
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 PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:42 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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Good point there FatalFist. Rape is as heinous, and sometimes more heinous, than murder. Think about it, with murder, that person is out of their misery, but with rape, that victim has to live with the psychological damage for the rest of their lives. And in the US system, that often means the rapist gets to spend maybe 10 years in jail enjoying a weight room, tv, and other amenities. They don't even get four lonely walls. Instead they get a bunk mate and time to fraternize with all the other convicts.

For the argument here, I'm going on the basis that the convicts are actually guilty, and are guilty of a heinous act and not some possibly justifiable situation. In that case, I think the guilty need to be punished, not simply removed from society. Regardless, there's two situations at play here: One - a set sentence where the person will be released. Two - a life sentence with no parole.

Let's say the guilty person is in case one, where they will be released. In that case, would you really want a system that merely takes that person and sets them aside for a set amount of time and then would release them back into society? What would that accomplish?

This goes back to something I brought up, can these people be fixed? In some cases yes, but that requires that they realize their crime, accept it, and strive to be better. That takes a serious switch in thinking, a dramatic change in their psyche, something that can be brought on due to contemplation, the kind inspired by four lonely walls and no one to talk to but yourself. That kind of solitude makes a person take a long, hard look at themselves, what they've done, and why they are where they are. That fixes some people who are willing to change, and for those who aren't, they stay crazy.

Just my thoughts.
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 PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 11:21 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Queen Padmè Skywalker wrote:
I'm most definitely for it. The Bible clearly states that the price for deliberately taking a life is that the murderer's life is forfeit. The only thing great enough to atone for a life is a life. However, if the killing was accidental, I would never advocate the death penalty for the killer.

Isn't that the old ways though (an eye for an eye)? Didn't Jesus change all that? To me, now that things are the way they are, the executioner is as guilty as the murderer.

@Darth Skuldren, while I agree severe contemplation could reform some criminals, you just don't know. It's so easy to say you've learned your lesson.
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Doubt not, Reepicheep,
To find all you seek,
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 PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 12:56 am Reply with quote  
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  Queen Padmè Skywalker
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Reepicheep wrote:
Isn't that the old ways though (an eye for an eye)? Didn't Jesus change all that? To me, now that things are the way they are, the executioner is as guilty as the murderer.


What exactly do you mean by "the old ways", though? It's true that the verse about the man who sheds the blood of an innocent shall have his own blood shed is in the Old Testament. Geneses, I believe. So is every law given in the Old Testament void since Jesus came? If so, then we wouldn't bother with the Ten Commandments. Also, the New Testament says that Jesus came not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it. Therefore, the command for the death penalty still stands.
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 PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:24 am Reply with quote  
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  FatalFist
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Reepicheep wrote:
To me, now that things are the way they are, the executioner is as guilty as the murderer.
.


The executioners shudnt be guilty for carrying out justice....In some cases the death penalty is a good thing. Its harsh perhaps, but equaly harsh is the crime in question.
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 PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 1:38 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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)But they're still murdering, whether it's justice or not.
Queen Padmè Skywalker wrote:
Quote:
Therefore, the command for the death penalty still stands.


That would mean we'd also have to wipe out people with other beliefs though (which, thankfully, we don't). I don't think all laws are moot (certainly not the Ten Commandments) but I don't see an eye for an eye still being applicable(just as I don't see anyone cutting of an ear of another ear-cutter anymore, ).
"You have heard that the law of Moses says, "Love your neighbor" and hate your enemy. But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven."Matthew 5:43-45

I really don't think Jesus would want us to murder our enemies (be them nosy neighbors or axe-murderers).

(Bythe way my sister told me today, that there is no death penalty in Canada! Very Happy )
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Where sky and water meet,
Where the waves grow sweet,
Doubt not, Reepicheep,
To find all you seek,
There is the utter east.


Last edited by Reepicheep on Sun Feb 28, 2010 1:53 pm; edited 2 times in total


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 PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 3:30 pm Reply with quote  
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  Queen Padmè Skywalker
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Reepicheep wrote:
)"You have heard that the law of Moses says, "Love your neighbor" and hate your enemy. But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven."Matthew 5:43-45

I really don't think Jesus would want us to murder our enemies (be them nosy neighbors or axe-murderers).


It isn't murder, it's justice. Yes, we should love our enemies and we should forgive them. But forgiveness does not mean escape from punishment. When you disobeyed your parents as a kid, they forgave you, but I'm sure they either spanked you or took away your TV or whatever.

Also, you said that the Ten Commandments still stand, but other laws don't? Who then gets to decide what counts and what doesn't?
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All things die, Anakin Skywalker, even stars burn out.

So this is how liberty dies....with thunderous applause.



Those without swords can still die upon them

The world is a mess and I just need to rule it.


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 PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 8:34 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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I have to disagree that killing a criminal in cold-blood isn't a murder and it goes against showing mercy and, as a Christian, striving to be more and doing better things than common criminals. It's a complex issue on changes between the Old Testament and the New Testament, but I do know that Christians eat pork, are active on Sundays and don't go on Crusades (with a few exceptions who, I believe were in the wrong). I don't think punishment goes against Jesus' teachings, but I still think the death penalty does. For instance, if a kid punches their brother in the head, should you punch him as punishment? About what laws still stand, Jesus specifically said which laws were changed (or fulfilled if you like). However, I have a feeling we'll never truly know until we can ask God in person.
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Where sky and water meet,
Where the waves grow sweet,
Doubt not, Reepicheep,
To find all you seek,
There is the utter east.


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 PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 9:18 pm Reply with quote  
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  Queen Padmè Skywalker
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Reepicheep wrote:
For instance, if a kid punches their brother in the head, should you punch him as punishment?


Actually, depending on the age of the kid, I believe you should spank him. *shrugs*

As for the fulfilling of the law, many laws such as "unclean foods" were given specifically to Israel at a specific time in history and were later addressed in other books of the Bible. But the law about the death penalty was given in Geneses as a general law not just to Israel, but to mankind. I believe it's in the same chapter that talks about marriage and the like. So it still stands.

Anyway, we're probably going to have to agree to disagree on the issue. Smile
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All things die, Anakin Skywalker, even stars burn out.

So this is how liberty dies....with thunderous applause.



Those without swords can still die upon them

The world is a mess and I just need to rule it.


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 PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:37 am Reply with quote  
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  kurtdc
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So long as the proof is indisputable and the circumstances warrant it, I am all for it. This would be for murder convictions, not necessarily manslaughter.

While I'm at it, rapists and particularly child molesters should also receive the death penalty. These heathens, more often than not, commit these atrocities again once they are released. If your mind is twisted in that direction, I'm sorry, but it can't be fixed.

Lock em up for life? Why, so our tax money can go to feeding and entertaining them? No thank you. Yes, I know prison life sucks, but they gets rights and priveledges too, and we pay for them.

My uncle was a heroid addict and got locked up somewhere between 12-15 times. He loved it. Sure, he lost his freedom for a time, but he always said it was the best he ever ate and he got his high school diploma there. Our taxes paid for that, and this was just a petty criminal who repeatedly got busted for possesion. We should pay for a lifetime of that treatment? No way.



The only idea I can come up for those who oppose the death penalty is this:

Claim some uninhabited island as an international prison for the world's worst offenders. Drop them off via parachute or whatever and leave them there to fend for themselves("survivor" style). They get a chance to live, yet can never leave that island and none of us have to have our taxes spent on that nonsense.


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 PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 11:20 am Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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Ah the good old Escape From New York idea. I admit my fascination often contemplates that when perusing this kind of discussion. I'm not sure how well it would actually work, but it's something to think about.

As for "eye for an eye" and "turn the other cheek", I actually side with Reep on this one. I had the understanding that in the New Testament, Jesus sort of nullified the "eye for an eye" thing. It also goes along with revenge being in God's hands and not ours. However, we were entrusted to hold courts and try are fellow man. So in the end it is more or less up to us on whether we think the death penalty is the proper sentence. I don't think Jesus ever said that the judges should not hand out the death penalty.

Regardless of all of that, I think an even more important point is the fact that some innocent people are executed due to the death penalty and mistakes in the court system. Now that is a rather valid point for doing away with the death penalty. Every now and then you here a news story about some guy with a life sentence getting released due to new DNA tests that proved he was innocent. Things like that are a shame.

Course if we throw those innocent people on the island, I'm not sure how much better their chances are, but they would get the opportunity to go on living.
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"I believe toys resonate with us as humans, we can hold them them, it's tactile, real! They are totems for our extended beliefs and imaginations. A fetish for ideas that hold as much interest and passion as old religious relics for some. We display them in our homes. They show who we are. They are signals for similar thinking people. A way we connect with each other...and I guess thats why I do toys. That connection." -Ashley Wood


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